Flex Your PCD Mettle:

[smokarz]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

If the mic can't "see" the driver exit, it won't hear it at those frequencies. Same for a listener, which is part of why exponential horns beam up high.

I had the Behringer cx3400 and it was silent, but it did have other issues. Had a similar BBE EQ(one of their high end models) and it hissed from one channel. The sales guy said he tried it in the shop, and no hiss. Not sure if he's full of it or not, but I think to some degree it's just luck with all this mass produced and untested or not thoroughly tested stuff. The consumer has become part of the quality control team and the savings are passed on to you.:eek:

Even though the Audyssey mic is tiny, I wouldn't trust it either(at all). Personally I can't see where REW would bring on any issues, but holm should work just fine as well. On axis, my d220 did go to 20kHz, but also fell rapidly off axis. In room and 10ft away, it was always down several dB. Probably a good thing. I would definitely try a calibrated mic first and a closer distance like 3 ft or less--that way you can be sure of your results.

Dan

thanks guys,

i will take close measuremement tonight at 1m and report back. i also have a diy mic based on the pansonic capsule that i can try.

i was hoping that this falls off at the listening position is a characteristic of the d220, and that nothing terrible went wrong with my build or my driver is defective.

[Erich H]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

On a seperate note...Those needing help sourcing replacement waveguides for the now unobtanium QSC's......check this link

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291022&page=40

Scroll down for pics, measurements and how to get em. A forum member has graciously sourced em from oversees and measurments indicate they may be as good as it gets where WG's are concerned.:D

The other company should have some me quotes shortly. They gave me estimates of about $65 for fiberglass. Shipping would be very cheap due to their light weight. I won't mind packaging them up for free because it will only take a few minutes. Once the other company commits to an accurate price, I'll let you guys know.

Besides their extremely good performance, I'm glad these actually look really nice compared to some of the other waveguides out there.

[NEO Dan]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

The other company should have some me quotes shortly. They gave me estimates of about $65 for fiberglass. Shipping would be very cheap due to their light weight. I won't mind packaging them up for free because it will only take a few minutes. Once the other company commits to an accurate price, I'll let you guys know.

Besides their extremely good performance, I'm glad these actually look really nice compared to some of the other waveguides out there.

SEOS 15" for ~$65? WOW!!!

[Erich H]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

SEOS 15" for ~$65? WOW!!!

Is that good or bad?

About a month or so ago the company gave a higher amount, but said they'd have to go over a few things on the rear mounting plate and hoped for a lower price.

I can get it done for a decent amount cheaper, but the price of the mold is 10's of thousands of dollars. If I thought the demand would justify 1000's of parts, I'd chance it. But I just don't know.

I'm still working on other ideas and hoping to get the price lower.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

Is that good or bad?

A few weeks ago the company gave a higher amount, but said they'd have to go over a few things on the rear mounting plate and hoped for a lower price.

I can get it done for a decent amount cheaper, but the price of the mold is 10's of thousands of dollars. If I thought the demand would justify 1000's of parts, I'd chance it. But I just don't know.

I'm still working on other ideas and hoping to get the price lower.

Once you have one, you have all you need for the next mold. It can't cost 10s of thousands to cast a negative of the waveguide, which could be used to make more of them. I mean, can't you just use expanding foam and a release agent to create a negative that could then be filled with epoxy resin?

[johnnyrichards]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

This thread accounts for ~33% of all posts on Tech Talk:eek:

[NEO Dan]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

Is that good or bad?
...

I'm still working on other ideas and hoping to get the price lower.

Hi Erich,
I think it's very good, maybe too good. I bet Earl would agree with me on this one :D

[NEO Dan]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

This thread accounts for ~33% of all posts on Tech Talk:eek:

Quick, do a search for global warming.

;););)

This thread is ego crushing DIY GOLD. More than once the old guard has tried to shut the mother down.

There's more to come too!

[Erich H]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

Once you have one, you have all you need for the next mold. It can't cost 10s of thousands to cast a negative of the waveguide, which could be used to make more of them. I mean, can't you just use expanding foam and a release agent to create a negative that could then be filled with epoxy resin?

It depends on demand, that's the problem. A few hundred, yes, a cheaper mold can be made. No expanding foam though. Silicone would be the best for that, but has to be the right strength. Epoxy resin wouldn't be the best way to go for these, but there are other resins. A lot of that stuff is brittle, and not every part works out. Drop one, it cracks easily. Plus, look at the mounting plate on the back. That's not an easy shape to work around with the huge overhangs.

Next up would be an aluminum mold for heated urethane. Cost is anywhere from $5k - $10k. $5k is for one part made each time, $10k is for a mold that makes 2 parts made each time. 2 parts made each time is a little cheaper per piece, but the mold costs more.

This would make some sense if you were going to make 1000 parts or so. Plus the mold would pretty much last forever.


Then we step up to injection molding to make 1000's. An injection mold is $40,000 in the US. Actually, I got one estimate that came in at $52k. The parts are obviously much cheaper to make then.....as long as you buy the mold. It can be done for cheaper in China, probably half that. But it's not easy finding a company you can trust to send $25k before you get the product. :rolleyes:

I met a forum member that lives in China and he's been looking. But it's still a huge risk to take. Keep in mind, I run a landscape business and I'm just doing this to help out as much as I can. However sending $25k+ to an unknown in China isn't the easiest pill to swallow just to get the lowest possible price. And that's IF 1000's need to be made.

If you think of an idea, let me know, but I may have already looked into it. That also includes having local audio companies help out. ;)

But as promised, I will get it done one way or the other. I've been working with the local prototyper for many months. It can be done right now in the US for close to the price I listed. I just thought the price was a bit high for the average DIY guy. They can also be ordered through Autotech as well. They said they'll continue making it as needed.



As promised though, I will get this done. I was just trying to get the end price as low as possible.

[stinems]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

I'll echo NEO_Dan's sentiments: $65 for the SEOS 15 fiberglass production version is utterly accessible and ripe (read: a good deal), and probably still would be even if it took a bit of a performance hit of versus the gel coated prototype version.

Is it quite as accessible as the bargain bin, ABS-plastic-JBL-knockoff? No, but it also seems you have a superior product in terms of performance. I doubt that I'm alone in saying that at $65, the price is low enough to move a lot of units to the DIY community. I'd worry about lowering it further (ie, buying expensive tooling) once you get a feel for how much demand is out there. Demand-side economics: it works, especially for the DIY community.

Erich, you're a total rockstar for going after this, thanks. I'll be in line to buy once they become available...

Cheers,
Sam

[Erich H]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

I'll echo NEO_Dan's sentiments: $65 for the SEOS 15 fiberglass production version is utterly accessible and ripe (read: a good deal), and probably still would be even if it took a bit of a performance hit of versus the gel coated prototype version.

Is it quite as accessible as the bargain bin, ABS-plastic-JBL-knockoff? No, but it also seems you have a superior product in terms of performance. I doubt that I'm alone in saying that at $65, the price is low enough to move a lot of units to the DIY community. I'd worry about lowering it further (ie, buying expensive tooling) once you get a feel for how much demand is out there. Demand-side economics: it works, especially for the DIY community.

Erich, you're a total rockstar for going after this, thanks. I'll be in line to buy once they become available...

Cheers,
Sam

Thanks. Keep in mind, I'm just passing along the info they told me. If the other company does there's in fiberglass, it will be gel coated, or they might as well do their heated urethane method. They will be as accessible as any other product when I get done with all this. That was my initial promise, and I'll be keeping that.

As it stands, Autotech's are ready to order and look great. They added a lot more colors to the standard price and the Group Buy is going right now. There are currently about 40 random horns/waveguides already ordered, so if you want something from them that will ship on this next pallet, don't wait too long. :D

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

The QSC152i is now available at PE.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=245-625%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&FTR=245-625

Rejoice all you Econowave Deluxe dreamers!!!

Thanks stgdz for pointing that out.

Thanks PE for gettin' it done.

[Erich H]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

Hi Erich,
I think it's very good, maybe too good. I bet Earl would agree with me on this one :D

I've been back and forth with the company and there will also be a 1 piece baffle with the SEOS and obviously the cutout for the woofer.

They will look really nice!!

[penngray]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

Is that good or bad?

About a month or so ago the company gave a higher amount, but said they'd have to go over a few things on the rear mounting plate and hoped for a lower price.

I can get it done for a decent amount cheaper, but the price of the mold is 10's of thousands of dollars. If I thought the demand would justify 1000's of parts, I'd chance it. But I just don't know.

I'm still working on other ideas and hoping to get the price lower.

Eric H, $65 would be amazing!!! I always thought they would cost around $100 just like the high quality 18sound waveguides.

Its definitely much, much cheaper then what Geddes was selling his OS waveguides for at one time. Geddes argued with me in a thread that it takes that much work and that is why he sold them for > $300. I simply disagreed ;)

[Erich H]

Re: Flex Your PCD Mettle:

Eric H, $65 would be amazing!!! I always thought they would cost around $100 just like the high quality 18sound waveguides.

Its definitely much, much cheaper then what Geddes was selling his OS waveguides for at one time. Geddes argued with me in a thread that it takes that much work and that is why he sold them for > $300. I simply disagreed ;)

Yeh, I can't wait until they give me the final pricing. When I asked them in an email how much the 2 sizes would be, they said $65. But they prototyped the 10" and 15". So maybe that's an average price. I should know very soon.

It's pretty neat knowing the these incredible waveguides were designed by the smartest of the DIY guys. BWaslo said they were the best he'd ever tested and that's really saying something!

If we can keep the price down, it would really be the icing on the cake. They tested great and they look great too.