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RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

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  • #16
    Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

    Originally posted by Deward Hastings View Post
    RS180? It sounds as good as (or better than) the 150, has plenty of oomph, and really likes the PE .38 ft cu enclosures (which makes things easier for the non-cabinet-makers who might want to try the design.

    I know, I know, it seems so . . . pedestrian . . . and doesn't cater to the driver-du-jour crowd . . . but there really isn't anything much, if any, better for under a couple hundred bucks.
    This design will have only one, very interesting looking, curved cabinet with the mid enclosure contained within the overall structure. At least, that's the current path we're on.

    And while the RS180 is an excellent woofer, the Peerless ain't no slouch, and I'd dare say in some ways, better, in that the resonances are much less pronounced in the Peeless. XO is likely a bit simpler. I'd also have to go with the RS180-4 in this passive design because the RS180-8 just is not sensitive enough to keep up with the RSS315-4. The 180-4 handles 60W vs. 40W for the RS150, a definite positive. The driver will be covering 200-1500, where there's a lot of energy. It's just that the Vas numbers for the RS180s are quite a bit higher than the Peerless, and I want to keep the enclosure from growing more than it is.

    I've got some time to decide on the mid while the cabinet construction details get worked out. I'll post an early concept drawing hopefully later tonight.
    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
    "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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    • #17
      Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

      The 180-4 handles 60W vs. 40W for the RS150, a definite positive. The driver will be covering 200-1500, where there's a lot of energy.
      The mid in this design is likely to see power well in excess of the factory specs. Obviously, an important issue is it's ability to dissipate heat. With it's longer, fatter (1.5" diameter) voice coil, the RS180-4 has about 3 times the voice coil surface area of the RS150-4. I would guess that the RS180's thermal power handling would be at least double that of the RS150. I don't think a single 5-1/4" is enough in this application. The RS150 may be marketed as a 6", but it is exactly the same size as most other 5-1/4" woofers. But Pete knows all this, I'm just being pedantic. I'm not voting for the RS180, just thinking that a 7" or a pair of 5"s should be the minimum for this type of design.

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      • #18
        Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

        YWhat to do . . . what to do . . .
        Have you looked at the SS Discovery 15W? If the spec sheet is to be trusted, there is plenty of sensitivity, good excursion, no breakups to deal with, and a natural 2db of BSC. Besides, I need someone else to spend the money and do some measurements before I pull the trigger. :p
        - John

        "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Dr. M. L. King
        www.BuildTheDream.org

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        • #19
          Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

          Why not go for a 4 way?

          rss315
          rs180
          rs52
          nd20

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

            Originally posted by brianpowers27 View Post
            Why not go for a 4 way?

            rss315
            rs180
            rs52
            nd20
            Don't get me started . . .

            Must

            Resist

            Temptation . . .




            I'll just add the RS52 to the RS180-4 and keep the RS28.

            Now how do I rearrange things on this baffle to make it work?????

            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

              Originally posted by Kapton Planet View Post
              The mid in this design is likely to see power well in excess of the factory specs. Obviously, an important issue is it's ability to dissipate heat. With it's longer, fatter (1.5" diameter) voice coil, the RS180-4 has about 3 times the voice coil surface area of the RS150-4. I would guess that the RS180's thermal power handling would be at least double that of the RS150. I don't think a single 5-1/4" is enough in this application. The RS150 may be marketed as a 6", but it is exactly the same size as most other 5-1/4" woofers. But Pete knows all this, I'm just being pedantic. I'm not voting for the RS180, just thinking that a 7" or a pair of 5"s should be the minimum for this type of design.
              OK, let's get specific about the application.

              Let's say, for instance, that a 500W amplifier is used to drive this system. If that 500W is only used to provide the instantaneous peaks in music, then the most dynamic of recordings will hit RMS levels of maybe 50W. Even with music of much lower dynamic range, like pounding metal for instance , peak to average ratio drops to around 5:1. That means 100W is delivered.

              With XO points of 200 and 1500, the power is distributed pretty evenly across the drivers in a three way. So even when I have the amp reaching the 500W peaks, no driver will see long term power levels over 40W. So only under the most excruciatingly loud conditions will things be pushing spec'd limits. 100W RMS music power will be producing 110dB + in the room from the pair of speakers.

              Now, if the intention is to drive the system to its limits, a larger mid might be in order.

              But who out there has some capable TMs using 5.25" drivers with a nice 12" sub underneath to fill out the lows? And those are usually crossed around 80Hz. These will be crossed at 200Hz, making these mids work far less even than the typical sub-satellite arrangement.

              For most "sane" uses, even the RS150 is probably adequate to the task.
              R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
              Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

              95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
              "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                Don't get me started . . .

                Must

                Resist

                Temptation . . .




                I'll just add the RS52 to the RS180-4 and keep the RS28.

                Now how do I rearrange things on this baffle to make it work?????

                Why resist>?

                You could move the rs150 (in the picture) just enough to squeeze in the rs52. The internal chamber would then need to be reconfigured.

                I am pretty sure that system could qualify as "ultimate"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                  Originally posted by brianpowers27 View Post
                  Why resist>?

                  You could move the rs150 (in the picture) just enough to squeeze in the rs52. The internal chamber would then need to be reconfigured.

                  I am pretty sure that system could qualify as "ultimate"
                  I much prefer the coherence and intergration from a well-excuted three-way compared to four-way with a dome mid shoehorned in between two drivers that can cross fine on their own. I have never heard a four-way of this type really sound right to me, including ones that I built. Not that I'm perfect, but it was just that things always seemed to blend better without an additional driver in this range. The only time I would add a driver like this would be if it were a filler-driver for phase correction.
                  Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                    pete, what program did you use to draw the cabinet mock up? thanks

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                      Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                      I much prefer the coherence and intergration from a well-excuted three-way compared to four-way with a dome mid shoehorned in between two drivers that can cross fine on their own. I have never heard a four-way of this type really sound right to me, including ones that I built. Not that I'm perfect, but it was just that things always seemed to blend better without an additional driver in this range. The only time I would add a driver like this would be if it were a filler-driver for phase correction.
                      I think I'll be sticking with the 3-way concept on this, with the XO points right where they are, maybe going to 2000Hz instead of 1500 if I go with the RS150. I pretty much convinced myself after the music power analysis that even the RS150-4 should be up to the task for most any listening levels. Still, I really like the idea the HDS Exclusive working as a mid.

                      I've got a lit more modeling to do with some midrange candidates.

                      Moving the midwoofer down the baffle face is not really an option either. I get the most unobstructed volume for the RSS315 to work in by keeping the mid chamber in the upper part of the cabinet.
                      R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                      Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                      95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                      "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                        Originally posted by DoubleTap View Post
                        Don't meant to thread crap, but how do you like those TLR's? I love my TC120TD5's, once you nail the crossover that is ...
                        very nice tweeter. got them for 350 a pair. made them nicer!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                          Let me throw one more candidate(s) into the mix. The TangBand Underhung W5-1685. It's going to model very similar to the Usher, even the 4" W4-1720 version is going to be right around 89 db/2.83v. Either would be very comfortable with a 200hz crossover in a sealed box. Plenty of Xmax, very clean sound, easy to crossover, heat should not be an issue.

                          I just want to know where you are putting the casters so you can move this beast!
                          Lou's Speaker Site [speakers.lonesaguaro.com]
                          "Different" is objective, "better" is subjective. Taste is not a provable fact.
                          Where are you John Galt? I may not be worthy, but I'm ready.

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                          • #28
                            Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                            I like your original plan better than anything since. The Usher is a fabulous sounding driver, personally I much prefer it over the RS150.
                            Vapor Audio

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                              Originally posted by LouC View Post
                              Let me throw one more candidate(s) into the mix. The TangBand Underhung W5-1685. It's going to model very similar to the Usher, even the 4" W4-1720 version is going to be right around 89 db/2.83v. Either would be very comfortable with a 200hz crossover in a sealed box. Plenty of Xmax, very clean sound, easy to crossover, heat should not be an issue.

                              I just want to know where you are putting the casters so you can move this beast!
                              Well Lou, where would you put the casters? I'm figuring on bottom . . . ;)

                              Yeah, we're anticipating these weighing in at over 100 lbs. D, Rose graciously offered to take his HDF bending skills and create this version of curved sided cabinets. Walls will be about an inch thick.

                              The TB underhungs are really nice units. However, they tend to sag a bit in the midrange compared to down low. Here's Zaph's plot on it. The 4" unit has the same characteristic. I doubt they'll have the requisite sensitivity to pull it off, but I'll give them a go in PCD. The Vifa P11 has potential, however, the rising distortion in the midrange compared to the RS150 or 830883 gives me pause. The SB 5" driver looks like a candidate as well, though it's Vas is a bit on the high side.



                              then again, there's always the Scan Speak 12MU/4731T00, or 15M/4531K, 15W/4531G, 10F/4424G, . . . anyone have any experience with their Discovery Series? The Revs and Illums sure would set me back a LOT more than I wanted to spend . . .
                              R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                              Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                              95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                              "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                                then again, there's always the Scan Speak 12MU/4731T00, or 15M/4531K, 15W/4531G, 10F/4424G, . . . anyone have any experience with their Discovery Series? The Revs and Illums sure would set me back a LOT more than I wanted to spend . . .
                                I do have a basement full of 15W/4831-G00 (same as 4531, just the OEM version), and wouldn't mind parting with a pair cheap. If you're gonna go, go big. This graph sounds good just looking at it

                                Vapor Audio

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