RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

[DoubleTap]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

Hey, listening to a FIM recording ... Masters of Chinese Percussion. We GOTTA try this cd out on your speakers. It'll give those 315's a workout like nothing yet!

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

I'd have thought that the measurements would at least hint that there was excess energy at 800Hz. The graph above shows the opposite, a slight trough at 800Hz.

I don't have the parts on hand to make the notch. Got a pair of 3mH inductors and 18uF caps? It would be easy enough to drop them into the circuit to see what they do. I've got plenty of resistors around to vary the notch depth.

And I don't think you're nuts. Everything you've suggested so far has improved the sound.

[DoubleTap]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

Just one more thing to add Pete, if you think I'm nuts with this 'forward' thing then tell me so. Once the woofer balance is right, I'd agree they're 98% of the way to perfect ... if you think it's more like 100% then I'm cool with that too.

They do sound fantastic right now, no doubt about that. Even to me the majority of songs we heard after the changes, I couldn't find fault. But sometime soon you should come over here and compare for yourself.

[DoubleTap]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

I've been listening more here at home Pete and feel more confident in what I said earlier. A lot of the same songs we listened to yesterday that would come forward in the stage don't do that here.

As far as the culprit I'm not 100% of what it is, but am using past experience as a guide ... both with the 15w and speakers in general. When a vocalist can go from deep behind the speakers to instantly in your lap during a dynamic passage, that's the upper midrange. That's what I call a forward presentation, excess tweeter energy I call brightness. Since it is a 3-way instead of the 15W handling bass, it could be that the 15W needs attenuation over it's entire band ... however male vocals not doing that makes me believe it's an upper midrange issue, and should be handled by a notch. My past experience with 80+ 15W's makes me think the same thing.

If a speaker measures flat but still comes forward on you, what are you going to trust? Your ears or the mic?

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

Boys boys boys . . . settle down now!!! :p

Hey Ryan,

Thanks again for the help.

Keep in mind that the need for a notch is especially important for an acoustic alignment like Troels used in the Ellam. He's got an LR4 @ 2800Hz implementation, which requires a flatter response to a higher frequency than the LR2 at 2200 I've got in the Byzantium. The Scan is already rolling off in the LR2 at 800Hz, but not in the Ellam. Without the notch, I can easily see how there could be too much energy at 800Hz.

I've been in the process of trying to get the measured data of the individual mid and tweet to line up with the combined response plot.

I traced the plots we took of the Scan and RS28, extracted minimum phase, and plugged them into the PCD model. The result was nothing like the measured combined response.

The only way I can get them even close is to actually push the acoustic center of the Scan forward of the tweeter by approximately 15mm, which is an interesting result in and of itself. Doing that seems to produce a plot that resembles the combined measured response reasonably well.

Since doing that, I've played around with the tweeter HP inductor in PCD, and with what we measured, a .25mH in place of the .5mH seems to do wonders for the phase match, as well as bring that area around 1KHz down. I wonder if some of that forwardness wasn't just the woofer being low, or even an issue with the Scan, but of too much contribution from the tweeter at that point. It's resonance is right where you were discussing the forward sound. Knocking down that inductor to .25mH reduces the tweeter output at that point by more than 5dB while only reducing the 1KHz summed level by 1dB. I've got some .25mH inductors laying around. I think I'll drop them into the circuit and give 'em a listen.

Stop by with your ears and tell me what you think!!! ;)

[Wolf]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

I guess I don't understand why you're taking this badly. They weren't awful. They were balanced, and room aside, that just says you have a different preference for an outcome sound than I do. I believe you can find the things that annoy you and eliminate them, or yours would not suit you as you say they do. I wasn't saying you don't have a sense about these things, but I wouldn't say I don't either. I couldn't have designed my Scandivifias by ear if I wasn't able to pick out certain things. I don't know why you think I'm sensitive about this either. It's purely discussion and opinion/fact things all over this forum.

Yes, Max may be a bit forward in the very top-end, but it basically has a smiley-response profile in the simulation with more 'grin' on the low-end. I don't find them harsh, but yet they are more forward than some of my other designs. Most of the range you state as being 'forward for a switchable design' is actually about 2-3 dB down already.

The room wasn't what it could be, no, but you seem to really focus on that as being the reason they didn't shine for me as expected. You should still be able to get a good idea about how a speaker sounds in any room, as long as you have more speakers as a reference set of points. All of those rooms have a little bass-bloom, that's a given, but everything else aside, that's negligible in my opinion. The yacking was pretty bad this time, and there was too much of it.

Perplexed,
Wolf

[DoubleTap]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

As to your 'forwardness sense', and this is by no means a slam, I found both of your pairs at InDIYana rather unengaging or muted. They did not take me in. It's all a matter of taste, now isn't it? This is not to say they were bad, as they were quite decent.

A lot of people heard my Scandivifias back at Iowa 2007, and if it were not for being a 'bookshelf' in competition with a bunch of 'floor-standers', they may have achieved greatness in the ranks. Some said they were the best bookshelf speakers they'd ever experienced, and a few of those from some I respect highly.

For somebody that's PM'd me haha'ing about how sensitive some others on here are, you're awfully sensitive yourself. Of course it's a matter of taste, but is this how you respond any time somebody expresses 'taste' that's different from yours? Maybe your ear finds some forwardness pleasing, your Max certainly was from what I heard. Since I have 4 M8N's in the basement I tucked that info away for later reference, for my ear I doubt I'd be happy with them used in a 2-way.

This is about the 5th time now you've tried to make a point of how unimpressed you were with my speakers. And as I've said multiple times now, posting conclusions about speakers heard in a poorly setup room with HVAC going full blast and 20 people standing in the back of it talking is foolish. No conclusions can be drawn in that setting.

Part of that perceived forwardness might be due to the level of the woofer, which we both realized was a bit low relative to the mid. Bringing it up with the EQ to be more in line did make a difference, but we really didn't listen that way for long. I'll feed it more program stuff with energy in that region and see how the EQ'd woofer level changes the sound of the mids. That forwardness might disappear.

Yes and no Pete. Yes in that I'd say the forwardness will be mitigated 75% by raising the woofer level ... no in that I've heard it enough times to know what level imbalance and what's a characteristic of the drivers. When a dynamic vocal passage goes from behind the speakers to in your lap during the peaks, that's when you should think about identifying that area and lowering it with a notch.

Leave the woofer EQ where it is, and try lowering from 800-1200hz (or maybe up to the xover point) about 1-2db. If you noticed during listening, male vocals never move forward in the stage ... it's only female vocals. Norah Jones was all up in my face yesterday, I could smell her breath ;)

In this case of listening vs. measurements, I lean toward trusting my ears. The measurements I would say don't rule out my hypothesis of a mild narrow notch being needed, but if you looked at them they certainly wouldn't highlight a need either. But the measurements weren't exactly taken following a strict protocol, and I'd say our listening was done quite properly.

In the end Pete they're your ears and your speakers. My ears somehow survived all the mosh pits of Pantera, Soulfly, and Megadeth concerts ... and I have been lucky to have the tutelidge of a couple no-joke Golden Ears. But if you're not hearing what I'm hearing then it's your thoughts that matter here. If you want, come back over to my place and use my system as another data point to see what I'm saying. Maybe you'll agree, or maybe your hearing is different.

I just thought of another point - when people build speaker level options into a design, it's always attenuating the tweeter 1 or 2db for example. But I've always thought a more appropriate and impactful change would be a switchable on/off notch that would bring 6-800hz up to 13-1500hz down 1 or 2db. If you'd have asked me about the tweeter level before we did our measurements Pete I would have said they sound alright, I just don't find personally that tweeter level has near as much impact.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

It was definately a productive couple listening sessions. They were great sounding to begin with, but got better and now the finish line is in sight. I'm very impressed with the resolution and integration of the RSS315, it blends seamlessly. I was also pleased with how male vocals that are handed back and forth between th 315 and 15W never seemed to waver in stage height or focus. The speaker from top to bottom is capable of wringing out loads of subtle detail.

After listening today though Pete I think it could use some more bracing and cabinet damping. They do disappear fairly well for a big speaker, and have a solid focused center image, but compared to my setup here at home the difference is pretty obvious. I think the combination of a bit of diffraction and some mild cab resonances are keeping them from being able to pull of the complete disappearing act.

I'm going to try and convince Pete to inserting a notch for the rising top end on the 15W. Even though it doesn't show on the summed measurement, it does when measuring the 15W alone ... and my golden ears are clearly picking up some forwardness in the upper midrange. I guess I just kinda assumed everybody knew to use a notch for the rising response on Scans ;)

I think it's time to finish these bad boys Pete. If you're going to order the 4ohm 315's, now would be the perfect time to take it apart and get er done.

Part of that perceived forwardness might be due to the level of the woofer, which we both realized was a bit low relative to the mid. Bringing it up with the EQ to be more in line did make a difference, but we really didn't listen that way for long. I'll feed it more program stuff with energy in that region and see how the EQ'd woofer level changes the sound of the mids. That forwardness might disappear.

[Wolf]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

Your measurement Wolf seems to indicate even more of the typical Scan 800hz hump, and I'd bet that whatever your speaker was in that case also had a fairly forward presentation.

Troels and Tony Gee also always use a notch on any Scan woofer pairing with a tweeter, it's just how they're engineered ... and I have a very sensitive ear for any forwardness.

To the contrary- it's not really forward at all. In fact- I have textbook BBC dip in there, and these were voiced by ear, with only the aid of impedance plot.

There is a bit of suspect info in the FR plot, as the room had HVAC noise, and was only good to about 500 Hz anyway. It might not actually be as severe as it is pictured, that only being about 3.5dB above nominal.

As to your 'forwardness sense', and this is by no means a slam, I found both of your pairs at InDIYana rather unengaging or muted. They did not take me in. It's all a matter of taste, now isn't it? This is not to say they were bad, as they were quite decent.

A lot of people heard my Scandivifias back at Iowa 2007, and if it were not for being a 'bookshelf' in competition with a bunch of 'floor-standers', they may have achieved greatness in the ranks. Some said they were the best bookshelf speakers they'd ever experienced, and a few of those from some I respect highly.

Later,
Wolf

[DoubleTap]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

I didn't have to on my damped/coated 15W's...




YMMV,
Wolf

My pile of 15W's started at 100 drivers, mostly 4831G00/8831G00/4531G00 ... but also a couple of 8531K00 and K01's. In the last 3 years I've whittled my pile down to about 20 15W's left. I've always used a notch on everything I've built with them, as have many other speaker designers I've spoke with who use them. Yesterday when Pete and I listened I didn't realize that he wasn't using a notch, I just assumed he had a notch for the Scan engineered rising response. But I knew there was too much energy in the upper midrange, today confirmed that with more listening even though measurement might make you wonder.

Your measurement Wolf seems to indicate even more of the typical Scan 800hz hump, and I'd bet that whatever your speaker was in that case also had a fairly forward presentation.

Troels and Tony Gee also always use a notch on any Scan woofer pairing with a tweeter, it's just how they're engineered ... and I have a very sensitive ear for any forwardness.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

I think it's time to finish these bad boys Pete. If you're going to order the 4ohm 315's, now would be the perfect time to take it apart and get er done.

I'm with you. After this weekend, I think I'll begin sanding the veneer and adding the bracing and damping.

Did you get my email on the Dual TL for the pair of RSS315HF-8? ;)

[Wolf]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

I didn't have to on my damped/coated 15W's...




YMMV,
Wolf

[DoubleTap]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

It was definately a productive couple listening sessions. They were great sounding to begin with, but got better and now the finish line is in sight. I'm very impressed with the resolution and integration of the RSS315, it blends seamlessly. I was also pleased with how male vocals that are handed back and forth between th 315 and 15W never seemed to waver in stage height or focus. The speaker from top to bottom is capable of wringing out loads of subtle detail.

After listening today though Pete I think it could use some more bracing and cabinet damping. They do disappear fairly well for a big speaker, and have a solid focused center image, but compared to my setup here at home the difference is pretty obvious. I think the combination of a bit of diffraction and some mild cab resonances are keeping them from being able to pull of the complete disappearing act.

I'm going to try and convince Pete to inserting a notch for the rising top end on the 15W. Even though it doesn't show on the summed measurement, it does when measuring the 15W alone ... and my golden ears are clearly picking up some forwardness in the upper midrange. I guess I just kinda assumed everybody knew to use a notch for the rising response on Scans ;)

I think it's time to finish these bad boys Pete. If you're going to order the 4ohm 315's, now would be the perfect time to take it apart and get er done.

[philiparcario]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

well I know the sound will be good. I do like the stain not too dark and the full grain shows.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

Beautiful job Pete, and I'm sure the sound will equal the looks once the fine tuning is done. I have a pair of the RSS315HF-4 to use in a somewhat similar manner, so I'm following your progress with interest. This will be a reference thread for me,

thanks for sharing the info,

Gordon

Well thank you Gordon. I can't imagine you being the least bit disappointed with the RSS315HF-4 in your three-way. The 8 Ohm version is excellent at reproducing the range from 300Hz down. I can certainly see doing another version of this in a simpler rectangular enclosure with the RS150-4 for the mid for an All Dayton killer 3-way.

What do you have in mind for your project?