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  • #16
    Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

    I think it's safe to say that those who plan on playing around with x-over components aren't buying such expensive components.

    I'd suggest researching how much difference these supposedly high-end components really make... I think you may end up saving a lot of money... (and perhaps cry a bit when you realize how much you could have saved!) :o

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

      Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
      I think it's safe to say that those who plan on playing around with x-over components aren't buying such expensive components.

      I'd suggest researching how much difference these supposedly high-end components really make... I think you may end up saving a lot of money... (and perhaps cry a bit when you realize how much you could have saved!) :o
      When you hear the difference that properly selected for the job components make on a very resolving system, perhaps you'll be figuring out how to save some money to put them in everything you build. Good sounding parts do not have to be incredibly expensive. Not every system rates Mundorf silver/gold in oil, V-caps or Platinums.

      If you don't have high resolution gear then you are absolutely correct. Just start saving for that or modifying what you already have to get there.

      :D

      Dave
      "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

      www.piaudiogroup.com

      http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
      http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
      http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

        Originally posted by dbe View Post
        When you hear the difference that properly selected for the job components make on a very resolving system, perhaps you'll be figuring out how to save some money to put them in everything you build. Good sounding parts do not have to be incredibly expensive. Not every system rates Mundorf silver/gold in oil, V-caps or Platinums.

        If you don't have high resolution gear then you are absolutely correct. Just start saving for that or modifying what you already have to get there.

        :D

        Dave
        I think Lunch Money meant after using a DBT which eliminates the "eye candy" and "OMG I Spent $*** on This So It HAS to sound Better" factor :p

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

          Originally posted by dbe View Post
          When you hear the difference that properly selected for the job components make on a very resolving system, perhaps you'll be figuring out how to save some money to put them in everything you build. Good sounding parts do not have to be incredibly expensive. Not every system rates Mundorf silver/gold in oil, V-caps or Platinums.

          If you don't have high resolution gear then you are absolutely correct. Just start saving for that or modifying what you already have to get there.

          :D

          Dave
          Pretty sure that's what I was implying. Note where I used the term "research"... I never claimed that all expensive x-over components aren't worth it... but a $400 crossover implies that perhaps expensive components were used across the board (forgive the pun)... I'm just suggesting that perhaps money could be saved by replacing some of these components with cheaper alternatives that work just as well.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

            Originally posted by davidl View Post
            I think Lunch Money meant after using a DBT which eliminates the "eye candy" and "OMG I Spent $*** on This So It HAS to sound Better" factor :p
            I'm sure he did. We have had this conversation several times. I keep trying to get him to upgrade (modify) his components.

            Once again: on most systems, for most people, most of the time, economy parts are just fine. On a few systems, for some people, some of the time, the superior (NOT expensive necessarily, just properly selected) parts can be picked out 100% of the time beit A/B, ABX or LSD.

            Some very expensive parts sound absolutely horrible in an improper implementation, while the lesser expensive parts sound great. Audio is one place where brains and wisdom count more than stupidly spend $$$.

            YMMV

            Dave
            "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

            www.piaudiogroup.com

            http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
            http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
            http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

              Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
              Pretty sure that's what I was implying. Note where I used the term "research"... I never claimed that all expensive x-over components aren't worth it... but a $400 crossover implies that perhaps expensive components were used across the board (forgive the pun)... I'm just suggesting that perhaps money could be saved by replacing some of these components with cheaper alternatives that work just as well.

              I liked the "across the board" bit: very funny. As one that appreciates a good pun, ya dun gud.

              Yup, it is all about the right part in the right place.

              Hey, do you still have the Parasound? My offer still stands.

              Dave
              "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

              www.piaudiogroup.com

              http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
              http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
              http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                Originally posted by dbe View Post
                I liked the "across the board" bit: very funny. As one that appreciates a good pun, ya dun gud.

                Yup, it is all about the right part in the right place.

                Hey, do you still have the Parasound? My offer still stands.

                Dave
                I sold the Parasound and replaced it with an Emotiva USP-1... it has a built-in crossover that allows me to high pass the mains and low pass the sub, with adjustable x-over points. Quite pleased with it so far.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                  I don't know if a good LCR meter will go a long way in this matter. Not all parts are exactly the values printed on them. I believe some NP electrolytic caps appear to have a property that acts like a resistor in them. One time I parallelled a small 0.1 uf polystyrene cap to the midrange NP cap(40 or 50 uf in value)XO in AR 11 and the midrange would sound over ripen and over abundant.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                    Originally posted by dbe View Post
                    I liked the "across the board" bit: very funny. As one that appreciates a good pun, ya dun gud.

                    Yup, it is all about the right part in the right place.

                    Hey, do you still have the Parasound? My offer still stands.

                    Dave
                    I got the parasound. I made the mistake of selling one 5 years ago. I finally got one back. Of all of the audio gear that has passed into and out of my home, that is a top 10 piece( seller's lament list as in why the f did I sell that one!). I would like to get back a few other pieces of gear I sold. At least I grabbed one back at a good price. I would get very annoyed at myself about selling that one.

                    My list is a rebuilt nad 2400thx

                    the parasound

                    the woofer used in totem acoustics lightening subs. worst item to have sold. I had 6 new ones. big big mistake.

                    a car amp from kenwood 4 channel excelon

                    a 10 inch sub from pe sale a mbQuart dvc.

                    that is 11 if you count the totem subs as 6 items they were the best 8 inch woofer in the world. made by focal for totem they made great two way woofers. super musical. those 8 inch woofers deserve high end caps. they listed for 299 if you purchased them from totem as an oem replacement. even though they went into a sub they could cross close to 1.1k played clean down to 60hz sealed or 35hz ported. IMHO
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by philiparcario; 02-04-2010, 01:35 PM. Reason: pictures

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                      If you spend $400 on a crossover it should voice itself in my opinion.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                        Originally posted by ligs View Post
                        I don't know if a good LCR meter will go a long way in this matter. Not all parts are exactly the values printed on them. I believe some NP electrolytic caps appear to have a property that acts like a resistor in them. One time I parallelled a small 0.1 uf polystyrene cap to the midrange NP cap(40 or 50 uf in value)XO in AR 11 and the midrange would sound over ripen and over abundant.
                        Hi ligs,

                        Personally, I don't believe an LCR meter will help you build a better passive crossover. Component values are what they are within the tolerance stated for the part. If you want tighter tolerances, buy higher quality parts, but be careful where you place them since "voicing" can negate the tighter tolerance you paid for. If you use software to model the tansfer function you can easily change component values to see how tolerance effects the results.

                        If you are unwinding coils to reach a target value, then a meter is useful. Also, if you are making more than just one set of speakers and you want repeatablilty from set to set, then using a meter to hand pick parts from a batch makes sense. But if you do it this way, you may end up with parts you paid for but can't use. (Well, I guess you could stuff your parts bin with them.)

                        Bill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                          Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                          I sold the Parasound and replaced it with an Emotiva USP-1... it has a built-in crossover that allows me to high pass the mains and low pass the sub, with adjustable x-over points. Quite pleased with it so far.
                          Looks like a very nice unit, especially for the $$$. Good job.

                          Dave
                          "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

                          www.piaudiogroup.com

                          http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
                          http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
                          http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                            Originally posted by philiparcario View Post
                            I got the parasound. I made the mistake of selling one 5 years ago. I finally got one back. Of all of the audio gear that has passed into and out of my home, that is a top 10 piece( seller's lament list as in why the f did I sell that one!). I would like to get back a few other pieces of gear I sold. At least I grabbed one back at a good price. I would get very annoyed at myself about selling that one.

                            My list is a rebuilt nad 2400thx

                            the parasound

                            the woofer used in totem acoustics lightening subs. worst item to have sold. I had 6 new ones. big big mistake.

                            a car amp from kenwood 4 channel excelon

                            a 10 inch sub from pe sale a mbQuart dvc.

                            that is 11 if you count the totem subs as 6 items they were the best 8 inch woofer in the world. made by focal for totem they made great two way woofers. super musical. those 8 inch woofers deserve high end caps. they listed for 299 if you purchased them from totem as an oem replacement. even though they went into a sub they could cross close to 1.1k played clean down to 60hz sealed or 35hz ported. IMHO
                            We all have those lists. Spur of the moment stupidity is what I call it. My biggest regret is selling a pair of Dynaco Mark III power amps back in the early 80's. I made the mistake of call Frank Van Alstine about some mods for them and he said the best thing I could do with them (Exact words, here) "throw those pieces of s#%* out the window and get some good amps!" I ended up buying a NAD 3040 and NAD 2040 to run bridged. Dumb... just plain dumb. I would like to have those Dynacos back since I now know how to make them sing.

                            My list is long, too, Philip. Fortunately my memory is getting shorter :D

                            Dave
                            "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

                            www.piaudiogroup.com

                            http://www.avguide.com/blog/tas-rmaf...w-technologies
                            http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/ramblings.htm
                            http://positive-feedback.com/Issue47/uber_buss.htm

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                              Originally posted by dbe View Post
                              We all have those lists. Spur of the moment stupidity is what I call it. My biggest regret is selling a pair of Dynaco Mark III power amps back in the early 80's. ...... I would like to have those Dynacos back since I now know how to make them sing.
                              Dave
                              You better not be wanting these MkIV's back !:eek: :D :D
                              If people want to listen to wiggles, that up to them....

                              I prefer music.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Perhaps someone can explain Voicing to me

                                Originally posted by billagee View Post
                                Hi ligs,

                                Personally, I don't believe an LCR meter will help you build a better passive crossover. Component values are what they are within the tolerance stated for the part. If you want tighter tolerances, buy higher quality parts, but be careful where you place them since "voicing" can negate the tighter tolerance you paid for. If you use software to model the tansfer function you can easily change component values to see how tolerance effects the results.

                                If you are unwinding coils to reach a target value, then a meter is useful. Also, if you are making more than just one set of speakers and you want repeatablilty from set to set, then using a meter to hand pick parts from a batch makes sense. But if you do it this way, you may end up with parts you paid for but can't use. (Well, I guess you could stuff your parts bin with them.)

                                Bill
                                I measure every component I use in a crossover ... why wouldn't you? Small value variations can absolutely have audible consequences. I've seen caps with 1% printed on them vary 10% in actual values. Especially when you're voicing a speaker, making small value changes, knowing exactly the value of what you're using is critical.
                                Vapor Audio

                                Comment

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