Finishing ...

[DoubleTap]

Let's talk wood finishes ...

Seems every time I do a cabinet the finishing process turns into 90% of the work. I'd like to just do something simple and have it turn out nice, but every time I end up building up 20 coats of something with multiple sandings inbetween.

Right now I'm going to try a couple wipes of pure Tung oil, then just a simple Briwax as the final step ... but I don't know how it'll turn out. I have a feeling it won't be as smooth as I want. I don't necessarily want gloss, I just want smooth.

I always sand to 400 grit before I start finishing, but without building up some sort of hard coat, I can't get a smooth surface. Am I missing something obvious? Is there something I can try that will give me a smooth surface, but preserve the natural look of wood as opposed to the plastic coating look of poly or shellac?

[donparsons]

Re: Finishing ...

Funny you ask. That is exactly what I got on that rosewood knife handle when I buffed. If you sand to to 600 then buff progressively with compounds I think you may have exactly what you are after.

The first buff I did with the red compound on that knife handle completly changed the look and feel of the wood. Each successive buff improved it further. I just bought a mini buffing kit for the drill, but for a nice pair of speakers I would consider a random orbital buffer like you would use on a car.

[evilskillit]

Re: Finishing ...

Yeah, I'm going to need to do some research into finishing because I'm working on a pair of speakers made of birch ply, which I'm hoping I can just finish. I'll be pleased as punch if I can get em to look as smooth and shiny as the speakers in this thread.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=216264

[ckmoore]

Re: Finishing ...

Pure tung oil isnt so much a finish as it is a conditioner. Its designed to penetrate deeply.

I am currently using Formbys Tung Oil, which isn't pure. It's more of a wiping varnish. (read: many coats, but after 8-10 coats, you get the deep conditioned bare wood look, WITH the protection.

Test I did for current build..



After 2 coats of Formbys tung oil





It is time consuming, with the one coat per day, and sanding with 0000 steel wool between.


btw, thats Maple paper-backed veneer

[MagicO309d]

Re: Finishing ...

It's such a personal taste issue. I like super high gloss on "formal" speakers used in my livingroom (maybe because of the piano/strings section finish association) so I guess one man's plastic is another man's glass. If you want to preserve maximum "depth of the wood" but want a more satin finish, use gloss finishing materials up until the very last coat or two and then switch over to satin or low gloss materials. Many multiple layers of satin tends to hide the wood and make it look cloudy.

I'm not there yet with finishes myself, I have a hunch that I need to learn staining and tinted finish coat techniques too to finally get it right.

[NickS]

Re: Finishing ...

Try this on a piece of scrap and see if you like the feel...

2-3 thin coats of poly (put some in a separate container and thin it 10%-20% with mineral spirits, if using oil based poly)
Lightly sand to 220 grit between coats (vacuum or use tack cloth on dust)
Let final coat dry completely
Take a piece of kraft paper or cut up a brown paper grocery bag and fold it up to the size of a 1/4 sheet of sandpaper
Rub the paper on the finished wood like you are sanding it

This kind of burnishes the finish like you are using a very high grit sandpaper

[biff]

Re: Finishing ...

I always sand to 400 grit before I start finishing, but without building up some sort of hard coat, I can't get a smooth surface. Am I missing something obvious? Is there something I can try that will give me a smooth surface, but preserve the natural look of wood as opposed to the plastic coating look of poly or shellac?

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it. However, I see what you are saying, but a natural wood finish is not completely smooth. Part of what denotes real wood as opposed to a plastic look is the texture that remains after finishing. I have had some examples when I kept sanding, tacking, coating, repeat, looking for that perfect build and finish and when it got where I thought I wanted it was flat, shiny, and lifeless. I also had been using tung oil and found vast differences between types. The Hardware store stuff (Ace) just wouldn't level until it was over the top. The Formby's mentioned is much better, but on good advice I got some Waterlox tung oil blend and it is easier to work and so far my favorite. I start out with a thinned coat for penetration, then block sand to pick up the little nits and tack. Then a couple (ok, several) of full strength light coats wiped on and then off and use a tilted credit card as a scraper to again pop that annoying popup since I last looked, then wipe with a lint free cloth and thinner as a final tack. If it looks nice wet, I am almost there. The last coat I apply with either steel wool or recently a Norton plastic equivalent (like a scothbrite mesh pad) and burnish it in. Usually end up with nice Chatoyance (3D) but some grain texture left to say "it's real wood". If I want just a bit more sheen I use a light wipe of beeswax/lemon oil rubbed in with a rag and follow it quickly with a dry rag. My baffles for my 3 way build are incredible (for my un-skill level) and have the mahogany grain texture AND that tiger eye jewel depth.


For my taste, when a wood finish ends up being so glossy it has great reflections on it I lose the reality of the material and the ability to appreciate it from many angles as those same reflections show the window, furnishings, rug, etc. Dan does some spectacular gloss finishes and has much to share on doing those. David Marks likes to finish with a combo of Tung oil, BLO, and poly and his work is stunning also.

[DoubleTap]

Re: Finishing ...

Funny you ask. That is exactly what I got on that rosewood knife handle when I buffed. If you sand to to 600 then buff progressively with compounds I think you may have exactly what you are after.

The first buff I did with the red compound on that knife handle completly changed the look and feel of the wood. Each successive buff improved it further. I just bought a mini buffing kit for the drill, but for a nice pair of speakers I would consider a random orbital buffer like you would use on a car.

Can you link me to a specific product so I know what you're talking about? I have a DeWalt random orbital buffer, have wet sanded and buffed a few cars ... and have done the same process on poly finishes with good success. I'm just not familiar with what compounds and pads you'd use for raw wood. Is this similar to a process woodturners use?

[MagicO309d]

Re: Finishing ...

Here's what you can do for a nice luster with just alcohol penetrating stain and layers of carnauba wax worked in with a buffing wheel in the traditional English fashion: http://www.boswellpipes.com/Freehands1.html

[donparsons]

Re: Finishing ...

Same idea as this or the post to the pipemaker:

http://woodenpost.com/products/wood_buff_system.htm

When doing golf clubs years ago, I had wheels mounted on an arbor. There has to be a way to get the buffing compounds onto your PC buffer. I think you will be happy with the finish. It is exactly what you describe.

Can you link me to a specific product so I know what you're talking about? I have a DeWalt random orbital buffer, have wet sanded and buffed a few cars ... and have done the same process on poly finishes with good success. I'm just not familiar with what compounds and pads you'd use for raw wood. Is this similar to a process woodturners use?

[bobbarkto]

Re: Finishing ...

Much depends on the wood species.
Some will not respond well to a pure oil and will always want to fuzz or look rough.

You can wet sand the oil in for the final coat or two. Use 600 grit paper. This helps immensely.

Now, let the oil dry. This can take a week or two or more, depending.
If it isn't dry, don't proceed, you won't succeed.

After the oil has dried you can rub again with 4/0 steel wool or the synthetic pads (gray ones).
Then another light coat of oil if needed. This coat will usually dry in 1-3 days at most if you keep it very light.

Now you can wax and you should have a very smooth but close to the grain finish without too much gloss.

Let's talk wood finishes ...

Seems every time I do a cabinet the finishing process turns into 90% of the work. I'd like to just do something simple and have it turn out nice, but every time I end up building up 20 coats of something with multiple sandings inbetween.

Right now I'm going to try a couple wipes of pure Tung oil, then just a simple Briwax as the final step ... but I don't know how it'll turn out. I have a feeling it won't be as smooth as I want. I don't necessarily want gloss, I just want smooth.

I always sand to 400 grit before I start finishing, but without building up some sort of hard coat, I can't get a smooth surface. Am I missing something obvious? Is there something I can try that will give me a smooth surface, but preserve the natural look of wood as opposed to the plastic coating look of poly or shellac?

[bobbarkto]

Re: Finishing ...

Keep in mind the wood that is being worked.

For example, this wouldn't be suitable for most birch veneered plywood as the grain is too coarse and furry.
The wood won't get to a high level of smoothness and the wax will lay too thick and look terrible.

On a burl or some dense hardwood it's a great way to get a finish quickly. It will need upkeep, wax deteriorates rapidly compared to any thing else.

Same idea as this or the post to the pipemaker:

http://woodenpost.com/products/wood_buff_system.htm

When doing golf clubs years ago, I had wheels mounted on an arbor. There has to be a way to get the buffing compounds onto your PC buffer. I think you will be happy with the finish. It is exactly what you describe.

[dwigle]

Re: Finishing ...

+1 for Waterlox. It is foolproof. I rub in one coat (with cloth or even a paper towel) and let dry. Rub in two more coats using 0000 steel wool. It creates a slurry as you're using the waterlox as a lubricant.

After that's dry rub in a couple more coats. It does take a little longer to dry with subsequent coats but no more than 8 hours. Thin coats are better than thick.

The best part is that you can recoat years later without sanding to freshen up the finish. I cleaned a sub I had done with cherry veneer recently and rubbed in 2 new coats and it looks perfect.

I used it on an oak kitchen table also.

[mgrabow]

Re: Finishing ...

Well as a woodworker, I can tell you that finishing is prepping, sanding, applying, repeating and wet sanding etc, etc,etc... Short of spraying it on to a high build coat (which will still require wet sanding) it is gonna be a long process.


Some may say that a high build coat looks lifeless, but the ultimate flat as glass high build coat (French Polish) has been around for hundreds of years. I dont think anyone would call a Stradivarius, lifeless in its woodworking, or "not real" wood... This is not a shot at anyone, but rather pointing out that the right process will likely yield what you are looking for if you do your homework and experiment.


I agree all tongue oils are different. I find the most expensive ones dont dry. The cheap hardware store wipe on tongue oils have worked best for me with minimal work...

However, spending 30 hours on my last project was well worth it. so it is my only way to do it now,

1) sand up to at least 350/400 grit
Clean surface with mineral spirits to check your work and repeat until perfect.
2) apply one coat of dewaxed shellac to seal the wood from any color change from step 3... sand and apply a second coat.
3)fill the grain. Bartleys works the best with the least amount of work. Clear or natural for light woods and dark for dark woods.
4)repeat step 1 and 4 until perfect
5) apply at least 3 coats of General finished arm-r-seal. sand with a red scotch bright pad between coats. It can be wiped on, spayed on, rolled on, brushed on... All the bubbles disappear. It is almost perfect. The grain will light up from the shellac and this clear coat.
6)wetsand if you want it flat and rub it down with steel wool, then apply briwax.

You will have a high end finish that begs to be touched and is resistant to sunlight, shows the woods beauty and is durable. Every so often apply another coat of wax...

[donparsons]

Re: Finishing ...

I take bobbarkto's advice on finishing wood very seriously. He has many posts on the subject and always gives thoughtful advice. I do my best and get some decent results, but have nowhere near his experience level.

Keep in mind the wood that is being worked.

For example, this wouldn't be suitable for most birch veneered plywood as the grain is too coarse and furry.
The wood won't get to a high level of smoothness and the wax will lay too thick and look terrible.

On a burl or some dense hardwood it's a great way to get a finish quickly. It will need upkeep, wax deteriorates rapidly compared to any thing else.