My turn!!

[martyh]

Re: My turn!!

After more than 10 years of helping others (family/friends) I have decided to do something for my birthday next month.
I want to build a pair of speakers with NO regards to cost. I feel I have more than earned this.
I am drawing on the vast knowledge, experience, and opinions of anyone who wants to comment on what they would do for themselves. Suggestions for line array, bookshelf, floorstander, with/without built in subwoofer are welcome.
The amount of feedback and suggestions will determine the length of time to build.
I will let this run for at least a week and see how it goes.

Being of a frugal nature and recognizing the law of diminishing returns, how about building a proven design that's both reasonable in cost and an excellent match to your listening tastes: Paul Kittingers Marcatos.

[robwest]

Re: My turn!!

[/QUOTE]

Looks like this guy will lose his investment if that sprinkler system goes off...

[critofur]

Re: My turn!!

One thing that might be a good idea - go to some high end speaker stores and ask them what are the best speakers you can get for under $20K then listen to some of those, see if there's a certain type of design that you like better than others.

$20K is a somewhat arbitary number - I just figure if you pay any more than that, you're not nesc. paying for more sound quality, you're just paying more to buy something that costs more, not because it's actually better.

[EDIT: Not suggesting that you BUY the speakers from the store, just listen to see what you really like.]

Being of a frugal nature and recognizing the law of diminishing returns, how about building a proven design that's both reasonable in cost and an excellent match to your listening tastes: Paul Kittingers Marcatos.

Has anybody said that the Marcatos are their favorite speakers, or praised them beyond just being good?

Again, I say that any speaker with simple 3/4" walls and basic sparse bracing is just not going to be better than decent.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: My turn!!

One thing that might be a good idea - go to some high end speaker stores and ask them what are the best speakers you can get for under $20K then listen to some of those, see if there's a certain type of design that you like better than others.

$20K is a somewhat arbitary number - I just figure if you pay any more than that, you're not nesc. paying for more sound quality, you're just paying more to buy something that costs more, not because it's actually better.



Has anybody said that the Marcatos are their favorite speakers, or praised them beyond just being good?

Again, I say that any speaker with simple 3/4" walls and basic sparse bracing is just not going to be better than decent.

Guess you never heard the Marcatos, or have seen Paul K's cabinetry skills.

[Wolf]

Re: My turn!!

I was thinking the same thing, but he has. They were at InDIYana 09, and so was Cris. The Marcatos are double side-paneled, so you are not getting a standard MDF cab at any rate.

That said- I didn't find the Marcatos to be Paul's best-work, but they were nice. The Alicantes and Cantilenas smoked it. Marcatos were better than the Centilanas though.
Later,
Wolf

[Wolf]

Re: My turn!!

Personally-
Yes- Scan-Speak Revelator Midbass, the 15W/8530K00, or an Accuton as DT suggested. If available, an ATD, ATC, or Jordan as well.

Tweeter- Depends on your direction. The SS Beryllium Air-Circ, Seas Exotic, Manger, Eton Symphony or Air-motion, Accuton, Morel Supreme, and RAAL or LCY should all be in the running there. You can have virtually anything you set your mind to for ~$600 or less each if you don't want diamond domes.

Woofers-
AE TD, SS-Revelators, Eton, Accuton, Dayton RS, Visaton, Volt.

Just some options, as there are MANY!
Wolf

[critofur]

Re: My turn!!

Guess you never heard the Marcatos, or have seen Paul K's cabinetry skills.

I was at InDIYana - he [Paul K.] had a very nice handout for them. I wish I had heard hits Cantilenas(?) (the ones with the MDM55 midrange).

There were a lot of decent speakers, maybe the room wasn't great - nothing really grabbed my attention. I guess to really evaluate speakers you need some time with them, with your own music and control of the volume to suit yourself.

In listening tests, there is just one driver that's stood out for me in the past several years: the RS225, I like it. Even in a two way [with a good tweeter than can go low]. I haven't much liked what I've heard out of the RS52 yet, but, I haven't heard Zaph's ZDT.

Oh, we tested several Usher woofers and they all seemed pretty good I must say, slightly prefered the RS225 over the Ushers we tested, however.

I'd like to hear wmax's speakers - those are some the OP should look at.

I was thinking the same thing...

I didn't say they were bad?

I think I would agree with the rest of your post, but, I haven't heard the other speakers you mention.

[WmAx]

Re: My turn!!

I'd like to hear wmax's speakers - those are some the OP should look at.

I design speakers to sound real - transporting you to the venue of the recording, re-creating a convincing illusion of the spatial properties, timbre, detail/resolution and every other cue that makes unamplified performances sound real.. Nothing else will do. That is my objective, and I have met the objective. It also requires a very ideal room acoustic - with lots of treatments to get specific acoustic characteristics in the room. The only exception to the 'real' part is when I specifically design a special purpose speaker such as near-field monitors, which are incapable of the illusion, but no shortcuts or compromises are made and every relevant thing to audible performance is optimized. There is no getting by 'cheap'; that is certain. I can recommend a path to the OP, but it would require absolute dedication to the objective, and the room would need substantial treatments - and some are extremely non WAF approved for this specific type of application.

-Chris

[Wolf]

Re: My turn!!

I was at InDIYana - he [Paul K.] had a very nice handout for them. I wish I had heard hits Cantilenas(?) (the ones with the MDM55 midrange).
I haven't much liked what I've heard out of the RS52 yet, but, I haven't heard Zaph's ZDT.
Oh, we tested several Usher woofers and they all seemed pretty good I must say, slightly prefered the RS225 over the Ushers we tested, however..
I didn't say they were bad?
I think I would agree with the rest of your post, but, I haven't heard the other speakers you mention.

I can definitely say the room was not great in that circumstance, but Paul's Marcatos were one of the most inoccuous in that setting.

I don't like the RS52. ZDT was probably the best I've heard the RS52, but I still didn't really care a lot for it.

I like both the Ushers and the RS225 (and 22W/8857T).

You made it sound as though you didn't care for them, due to your looking for higher-praise and restatement of the cabinet construction. I just reiterated the actual construction is not as inferior as it seemed. 'just being good' says you didn't think they were beyond that.

The others mentioned were all of Paul's projects.
Cantilenas: Selah-Audio designed XO; SS 22W-8857T/MDM55/NeoCD1.0 in MLTL.
Alicantes: Selah-Audio designed XO; RS225/MDM55/XT19 in 12:1 tapered TL.
Centilanas: Pete S. designed Duelund-XO; RS180-4/RS52/XT19

Later,
Wolf

[Dirk]

Re: My turn!!

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Curt's Mavericks or any of the Statement line. They may not be made of the most expensive parts out there, but damn, can that man can voice a pleasing speaker.

[DoubleTap]

Re: My turn!!

I listen to music more than watching movies.
I listen to a balance of blues, light jazz, smooth R&B (old school), some classical, and soundtracks (Hans Zimmer, James Horner, etc), and some techno (DJ Baby Anne, Enigma, etc).
I like power tracks sometimes ("Games and Escape" - Apocalypto, "Barbarian Horde" - Gladiator, etc).
So it would seem that I will need something that can handle dynamics without too much distortion. Hmm, sounds like a line array will be my choice.
As far as the new array from Rick, I forgot about that one. I'll go back and check it out.
Room size is pretty much standard size- my house was built in 1954. Even though the room is a standard size I still like to get a little loose with the volume!!

There's no reason to believe that a line array is the direction you need to go if you want dynamics. Plenty of directions can get you there ... I've even heard 2-way bookshelves capable of incredible dynamics, because the drivers used are capable.

So if this 'project' is real, don't lock in on an array. They're very difficult to design and built, and come with lots of baggage along with the benefits. I still say a 3-way with the drivers I suggest before, if done right, could be as good as anything imaginable. You'd have 93-94db sensitivity when completed, and unlike most high sensitivity designs - ruler flat FR and almost un-measurably low distortion across the spectrum.

[HareBrained]

Re: My turn!!

I'm going to throw Jed K.'s hat into this ring. I have a great deal of respect for what he's doing and how he's doin' it. And if he doesn't have what you're looking for, I bet he'd design it for you.

http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/products.html

[Scott L]

Re: My turn!!

I design speakers to sound real - transporting you to the venue of the recording, re-creating a convincing illusion of the spatial properties, timbre, detail/resolution and every other cue that makes unamplified performances sound real.. Nothing else will do. That is my objective, and I have met the objective. It also requires a very ideal room acoustic - with lots of treatments to get specific acoustic characteristics in the room. The only exception to the 'real' part is when I specifically design a special purpose speaker such as near-field monitors, which are incapable of the illusion, but no shortcuts or compromises are made and every relevant thing to audible performance is optimized. There is no getting by 'cheap'; that is certain. I can recommend a path to the OP, but it would require absolute dedication to the objective, and the room would need substantial treatments - and some are extremely non WAF approved for this specific type of application.

-Chris

I simply can NOT remember the last time I read a post like this, that was sooo
profound and true. Like spot on TRUE. How refreshing. I'll have to dig in deeper. Thanks.

[maynardg]

Re: My turn!!

I simply can NOT remember the last time I read a post like this, that was sooo
profound and true. Like spot on TRUE. How refreshing. I'll have to dig in deeper. Thanks.

The biggest obstacle is shabbyy recording, compression, etc. Speakers that make the best recordings sound best seem to make run-of-the mill recordings sound pretty bad.

That said, IMO, the Cantilenas are a few notches above Paul's other efforts and above most of what I've heard. I like everything I've heard from Curt/Wayne and company. They get the most out of whatever they use, sees both individually, and collectively.

[Mark65]

Re: My turn!!

The biggest obstacle is shabbyy recording, compression, etc. Speakers that make the best recordings sound best seem to make run-of-the mill recordings sound pretty bad.

That said, IMO, the Cantilenas are a few notches above Paul's other efforts and above most of what I've heard. I like everything I've heard from Curt/Wayne and company. They get the most out of whatever they use, sees both individually, and collectively.

I'm curious...I've read a lot of opinions on very good recordings, but not that much on run-of-the-mill to poor ones, especially in terms of the types of music that I listen to (classic rock, mostly, with some newer heavy stuff and hair metal thrown in, plus a smattering of jazz and classical). I'm reminded of the "Greek Audiophiles" video that someone posted here a while back, where people were spending six figures and taking up ungodly amounts of space in their homes to achieve audio bliss. They were ALL listening to orchestral music. If realism is the ultimate goal then it seems to me that one could easily go to the symphony every week for far less money. That is of course unless you live somewhere out of range of a large city...


Mark