Finishing cherry... a sanity check

[Dirk]

My plans are to finish my current cabs by hitting the cherry with dark walnut Transtint and then to layer on as many coats of poly as I can will myself to apply.

Honestly, I haven't thought too much further than that, as I've been working dutifully to get the veneer applied cleanly. A few questions then:

1. I've heard that cherry can splotch. With the dark tone I am applying, is this still an issue? I was going to mix the Transtint with alcohol to keep the grain down. This is flat-cut; I'm more interested in the tone of the finish than I am in the texture.

2. Do I sand between dye and the first coat of poly?

3. Do I sand between poly coats? I know you do with

4. Should I consider doing something altogether different? Skip the pure dye step and tint the first coat of poly? My only concern is my ability to apply a finish with low VOCs. I was going to use waterbased poly for odor control (still too cold out to apply finishes in my garage). Otherwise, I'm quite open to ideas.

[Ron_E]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

The only cherry I've stained was a mirror frame and I used an off the shelf wood stain like Minwax and didn't have any trouble getting an even stain. YRMV. I did manage to sand through the stain on one of the edges and didn't notice it until the mirror was installed and hung, so care should be taken sanding. I think if I try to stain something again I may try something like the Watco oil products that can be over-coated with Poly after 72 hours. I sand between coats following the instructions on the can. I have an extra bathroom with a vent fan that I've been using this winter to cut down on the fumes. It's in the basement and that's worked pretty well. I wet sand the final coat with 600 and then 1200 grit sand paper and then rub out the finish with linseed oil and pumice followed by linseed oil and rottenstone. There's a closeup on the projects page of a woofer and tweeter on a natural cherry baffle that might give you some feel for what the finish ends up like.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=216691

Ron E.

[PassingInterest]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check






Here's what I would do.

First off--do not allow waterbased anything to touch the veneer.
If you do, the veneer will absorb the water and swell. Unevenly.
Leaving you with a very rough and rugged terrain, which will require many coats of poly to smooth it out. You can't sand it smooth, because veneer is thin.

Second: Reconsider your choice of Dark Walnut Trans-Tint.
In my experiences with Dark Walnut Trans-Tint on Australian Walnut, among other woods, it never quite looks right to me until I get it dark enough that the wood grain is difficult to see. In other words, that particular choice is a little too opaque for my tastes.
Instead, try Brown Mahogany Trans-Tint.
I have found that I can add a little color, or a lot of color to a project with Brown Mahogany Trans-Tint and it looks good.

So, here we go:

Step One: Apply three coats of solvent based poly to seal the veneer and protect it from what happens next.

Step Two: (Optional) Lightly sand the cured poly. If you do this step, make sure no bare wood veneer is exposed after sanding. If any is, apply one more coat of solvent based poly.

Step Three: Apply two coats of MinWax Oil-Modified Waterbased Polyurethane. This stuff dries fast, but looks much more like solvent based poly once it dries. Lowe's carries it.

Step Four: Mix the Trans-Tint in with some of your Waterbased Poly.
You're better off not mixing it in too dark. You can build up multiple tinted coats to achieve the look you want. But, if it goes on a little too dark in a single step, you have to sand it off and start over again. You're better off walking it in step by step. You should use some test pieces to check the outcome, before applying any tint to your box. I consider a good mix to be one where I get to the depth of color I desire in 2-3 tinted coats.

Step Five: Strain your Tinted Poly with a paint strainer (paper funnels with mesh. A medium mesh is good).

Step Six: Apply your Tint in however many coats are needed to achieve the color depth you desire. Remember, the waterbased poly dries pretty fast, so you can apply multiple coats in a single day.

Step Seven: Apply a minimum of Four coats of clear untinted waterbased poly (oil modified) before performing any sanding or buffing. If you sand/buff through into the color coat, you will have a difficult time of blending it in to correct the damage to the color coat.

Step Eight: CAREFULLY sand the box, making sure you do not sand through into the color coat. Err on the side of caution if need be.

Step Nine: Apply two last coats of clear waterbased poly.

Step Ten: Buff to the desired sheen.


Enjoy your project.

Pi










Here is a set where I used Brown Mahogany Trans-Tint on Walnut Veneer.
I hadn't buffed them yet at the time this photo was taken.

[dougjohnson]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Keep in mind that cherry will darken dramatically over time with exposure to light. I wouldn't dye cherry unless I was looking to match something very dark.

Poly will give an "on top of the wood" look to the finish, especially with many coats. If that's what you like, that's fine. My favorite finish for cherry is pure tung oil (not "tung oil finish", which can be anything). Thin the first coat 50-50 with mineral spirits, wipe on a wet coat until the wood won't take any more. Let sit for 15 minutes, wipe dry, wait 24 hours. Repeat two or three times with straight tung oil.

You can wipe on the later coats and wet sand with 600 grit to smooth the finish, then wait 20 minutes and wipe dry. The result is a very deep, close to the wood finish that really highlights the grain.

Tung oil is a natural finish. I don't think it emits any VOCs. (See http://www.thorzen.com/) You can skip the dilution of mineral spirits in the first coat if you really want to be good about that.

One caution. The tung oil soaked rags can spontaneously catch fire if you leave them bunched up. Spread them out on the driveway or equivalent and let them dry completely before throwing them away. You can also weight them down in a bucket of water. But don't just leave them in a pile someplace.

-- Doug

[bobbarkto]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Anytime you color cherry, no matter what method, you have a risk for splotching. The more figured the wood the more likely this will be. The darker the colorant, the more pronounced the splotches will be.
Sometimes qs plain cherry will splotch with the least bit of color.
You just never know, so plan ahead.

Penetrating oils colored with dye or pigment are most troublesome ime.

A good pre-stain sealer of very dilute shellac will usually fix the issue for most types of dyes and pigment stains.

Water based anything should not be a problem as long as you don't soak the wood. You can wetsand water based dye into the veneer without using much dye and get a smooth surface in the process.
A WB topcoat will go on over that without much further grain raising, probably none.

Sanding the first coat of any surface finish is usually needed to remove the crap that eventually shows up.
If your coats are smooth enough, don't sand.
Unless you exceed the minimum recoat window (time to recoat), follow the directions on the can!!

I don't like tinting a brushed on film forming finish as it's very difficult to work without getting uneven color. If you dye there should be no need to tint.

Now I have to ask the question, why you are going so dark on cherry in the first place? ;)

[dian1511]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Tung oil is a natural finish. I don't think it emits any VOCs. (See http://www.thorzen.com/) You can skip the dilution of mineral spirits in the first coat if you really want to be good about that.


-- Doug

Doug,

Are you referring to pure Tung Oil? The Formby's that is commonly sold in the big box stores is a mixture, I believe of Tung Oil and a varnish or poly of some sort. I may be wrong.

[bobbarkto]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

There is no tung oil in Formby's anything.
It's mineral spirits and varnish with some driers added.

If you go to a store and buy something that says tung oil on the label there isn't any tung oil in the container. Unless the label says 100% pure tung oil and nothing else.

Doug,

Are you referring to pure Tung Oil? The Formby's that is commonly sold in the big box stores is a mixture, I believe of Tung Oil and a varnish or poly of some sort. I may be wrong.

[dougjohnson]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Doug,

Are you referring to pure Tung Oil?

I'm talking about this, for example:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20049&cat=1,190,42942

-- Doug

[dougjohnson]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Now I have to ask the question, why you are going so dark on cherry in the first place? ;)

Over in the rec.woodworking newsgroup, staining cherry is a first degree felony. I confess I've done it. Once when I was young and ignorant and once when I had to match a piece of commercial furniture. But cherry is such a pretty wood and only gets prettier with time. Like a pretty woman, I think it is best bare. -- Doug

[dwigle]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

On cherry I used Minwax conditioner. Then a coat or two of alcohol based red dye. Then mahagony brown gel stain.

Then several coats of Waterlox. Wipe it on with a paper towel - very thin coats. It dries pretty fast. Continue with thin coats until you get the depth of finish your after. It will give you a pro quality finish that looks sprayed on. And you applied it with a paper towel! It doesn't have that cheap furniture poly look.

Sometimes I apply the second coat with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper - using the Waterlox as a lubricant. Rub it in carefully to give even pressure and not sand off any dye/stain you may use. It creates a slurry that helps fill the pores of wood like wenge, mahogany and oak. Then wipe it off with clean paper towels. The process yields a glass like finish. Then apply two more coats normally.

Oh, the other great thing about Waterlox - you can re-coat it this year or next or later without sanding. The sub in the attached photo had a couple water spots and rings after 5 years. I lightly cleaned it with mineral spirits and rubbed it down with two coats Waterlox. It looks brand new.

Use Waterlox Original Satin Finish, it's a tung oil based finish with more resistance to moisture - I use it on my speakers, kitchen table and front door.

[jclin4]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Dirk, do you have spare veneer that you can experiment on? Try the different finishes like Tung Oil that others have recommended and see if it darkens the cherry enough to your liking, without stains or dye. Unfinished veneer looks bad to start with, and a Tung Oil finish or even wipe-on Poly will add richness.

I love the look of cherry grain and have to weigh in on the side of those who say don't stain. And the cherry cabs and furniture I have continue to darken on their own with time.

[LouC]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

My plans are to finish my current cabs by hitting the cherry with dark walnut Transtint and then to layer on as many coats of poly as I can will myself to apply.

Honestly, I haven't thought too much further than that, as I've been working dutifully to get the veneer applied cleanly. A few questions then:

1. I've heard that cherry can splotch. With the dark tone I am applying, is this still an issue? I was going to mix the Transtint with alcohol to keep the grain down. This is flat-cut; I'm more interested in the tone of the finish than I am in the texture.

2. Do I sand between dye and the first coat of poly?

3. Do I sand between poly coats? I know you do with

4. Should I consider doing something altogether different? Skip the pure dye step and tint the first coat of poly? My only concern is my ability to apply a finish with low VOCs. I was going to use waterbased poly for odor control (still too cold out to apply finishes in my garage). Otherwise, I'm quite open to ideas.

A couple of thoughts:
I like a 50:50 mix of water:alcohol and spray the dye. Transtint is wonderful stuff, a little detail gun will make it easier. OR

If you have enough scrap, try using Zinsser Sealcoat. (Dewaxed shellac) Dilute it 3:1 alcohol:water (1/2 lb cut) add your dye to that and pad it on (one wet swipe) let it dry, then go back and darken any splotchy areas. Once sealed with shellac, you can do just about any clear coat you want. Check out the writeup on my man cave. I've found that one step stain/shellac is pretty bullet proof.

If you aren't going to spray, then wiping on water based is pretty easy. Adding 10-15% distilled water will actually make it easier to work with. I like acrylics better than polyurethane, many "crosslink" (dissolve the finish underneath) so no intermediate sanding much faster drying too.

[Dirk]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Bob, I'm working to replicate the "cappucino" color that is so common these days. We have a couple other pieces in the room that are that color. I was also considering adding some Cordovan to get a little more violet to the tint. If you saw Maynard's "Ziran", that's pretty close to my goal (maybe just a smidge less purple & a smidge more red).

I have plenty of extra veneer. The project took 1-1/2 sheets. I bought a 3rd sheet, mainly because it was figured and didn't below in with the other sheets... THAT one I'll slather with some hand-rubbed finish.

I do understand that cherry will deepen with UV exposure. My thinking is that, with a darker dye, the cherry's tendancies won't matter so much.

[Dirk]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

Okay...shellacs. Still don't understand them.

"1lb cut"...isn't that a boxing thing?

[LouC]

Re: Finishing cherry... a sanity check

It's just a measure of density. How how many lbs of flakes can can you dissolve in a gallon of alcohol. (Did your mom ever water down the soup or the OJ?) SealCoat is a 2lb cut of dewaxed shellac. By diluting it 3:1 you make it less of a sealer, more like a stain. Just about everything is compatible with ( and will stick to) shellac. It dries very quickly. You can seal oil stain with it and spray waterbase over the top. IMHO, the most versatile finishing product there is.