Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

[mtmpenn]

Hey Everybody,

I am testing various finishes for my tritrix build, and was wondering if I could get some advice.

I want a satin on these when they are done.
I understand that if you finish with gloss, you can rub it down with 0000 steel wool for more of a satin look, after the finish has cured.

My question is: do you use any sort of lubricant with the steel wool?
I am trying to avoid wax.

Does the type of finish change the preferred lubricant?

On test pieces right now I have both amber shellac and an alkyd varnish.
I would like to rub both down. I've seen soapy water recommended but that seems like a bad idea on shellac.

Thanks,
Mike

[kurt6325]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

It sounds like you want a hand rubbed look which would be a 20 sheen. Mohawk Finishing Products has all of this including EZ Vinyl Sealer in aerosol. W.P. Wiliams in Grand Rapids, MI stocks all of this. It's great stuff. Mohawk has been around for a long time and makes great finishing products.

[martyh]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

Ok, this may be the dumbest question of the day, but if you're looking for a satin finish, why not just use a satin finish product?

[LouC]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

Hey Everybody,
I am testing various finishes for my tritrix build, and was wondering if I could get some advice.

Does the type of finish change the preferred lubricant?

On test pieces right now I have both amber shellac and an alkyd varnish.
I would like to rub both down. I've seen soapy water recommended but that seems like a bad idea on shellac.

Shellac is pretty soft (relative to other finishes) if you want to knock down the sheen, the synthetic 3M pads & sponges are another alternative. Try a test piece, plain distilled water shouldn't be a problem.

I also found small packs of 1200 & 2000 papers at one of the auto paint stores. I've used those dry with pretty good success. Work exclusively with the grain. If you go too far, you can always wipe on another thinned coat of shellac. I've done this with water based acrylics.

[dougjohnson]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

Hey Everybody,

I am testing various finishes for my tritrix build, and was wondering if I could get some advice.

I want a satin on these when they are done.
I understand that if you finish with gloss, you can rub it down with 0000 steel wool for more of a satin look, after the finish has cured.

My question is: do you use any sort of lubricant with the steel wool?
I am trying to avoid wax.

Does the type of finish change the preferred lubricant?

On test pieces right now I have both amber shellac and an alkyd varnish.
I would like to rub both down. I've seen soapy water recommended but that seems like a bad idea on shellac.

Thanks,
Mike

You can try it without a lubricant. That would make it easier to see the final finish and where you need to rub more. But mineral spirits should work for either finish. -- Doug

[mtmpenn]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

Marty: I think that is a great question.

I should preface my answer. I am very new to woodworking, and have almost zero actual experience. I have been reading a lot on the internet. I am also testing out a couple of different options on my test piece. I have not yet tested satin products, but may get there.
Here is my rationale for my current approach:

1. Shellac only comes in one gloss level. So reducing the gloss on that piece means either rubbing it out, or top coating it. Given that I am using a premixed, wax containing shellac, there is some debate about whether or not a satin poly/varnish could go over top (the official answer seems to be not to do it, but there are lots of people on woodworking forums who say they do it all the time and never have any problems, so I suppose I could try it).

2. For building a finish, I've read that it is best to start with gloss. Semi-gloss and satin finishes have flatteners added to them. When applying many coats, there is (supposedly, no real experience here) a loss of clarity. Many suggest building the finish with gloss, then either rubbing it down to the required sheen or using a satin/semi-gloss product for only the last coat.

I am trying to avoid using a satin top-coat because I don't want to buy another can of finish and I already have 0000 steel wool. I also think that there could be a benefit to rubbing the finish a little to help remove dust or minimal imperfections from padding the finish on. A lot of what I read suggests using paste wax as a lubricant, but I'm not excited about the maintenance associated with a waxed finish.

Overall, I must say that finishing seems extremely confusing. There are a myriad of options. I'm experimenting and learning though, which is good.
Amber shellac really does do nice things to walnut veneer. The orange color warms it up really nicely. I just don't like the shine.

[LouC]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

Ok, this may be the dumbest question of the day, but if you're looking for a satin finish, why not just use a satin finish product?

Not a dumb question at all. Most products designed for less gloss have an additive (typically gypsum) designed to dull the sheen. Multiple coats tend to make the finish cloudy. Especially on really dark woods. In production shops,they'll often build with gloss, then shoot the final coat with satin/flat/semi gloss. If you're using an open pore wood (oak, ash, hickory...) then a couple coats of satin is probably the better choice.

Personally I always shoot gloss, then rub down to the sheen I want with wet sanding.

[bobbarkto]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

I use paste wax when rubbing out shellac.
Clean up with paper towel dampened with a little mineral spirits.
Johnsons paste wax is cheap and readily available.

I would hand sand to about 400-800 grit, lightly, just to even out the finish a bit before rubbing with the 0000. I've found Nortons 3X paper to work the best on shellac. 3M Gold is a close second. Both are coated to reduce loading.
You might ned to apply one last coat of shellac after sanding.

[mtmpenn]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

So, are you wiping the wax off with the mineral spirits, or does wax remain on the finish when complete?

Mike

[bobbarkto]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

I'm cleaning off the wax and shellac residue.
Although I usually do wax again, it's not strictly necessary.

So, are you wiping the wax off with the mineral spirits, or does wax remain on the finish when complete?

Mike

[Flint]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

To buff out shellac you can use the white "non-abrasive" rubbing pad, which is less aggressive than #0000 steel wool. It's also less friable (doesn't leave loose fibers everywhere).

Poly or alkyd would be more abrasion resistant than shellac, and the white pad would need a lot of muscle to do the job. You could use steel wool, and be careful to rub only with the grain. Grey rubbing pads (extra fine) would also work.

As mentioned above, any finish that comes in gloss and satin generally has some powdery agent in the satin version. I've had bad results with this, either from not mixing it well enough (one coat is suddenly high gloss) or from clouding (too much of the powder in the finish). So rubbing a high gloss down to satin is a good idea.

If the surface looks scuffed after rubbing, you can also wax it. That can be a lot of work though, and it complicates refinishing. It's also harder to maintain because it attracts dirt.

[[email protected]]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

i tend to build up with clear gloss too. if i want a more satin finish, i sand with 400 and the use a grey pad i attach to an old sanding disc on the random orbit sander. then i put a chunk of johnson paste wax inside the end of a sock so the wax melts through. then polish with a white pad.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

To buff out shellac you can use the white "non-abrasive" rubbing pad, which is less aggressive than #0000 steel wool. It's also less friable (doesn't leave loose fibers everywhere).
.

+1. Steel wool bits and driver magnets are a bad combination. Use 3M Scotchbrite.

[fastbike1]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

Good luck with the shellac. I think it's way more trouble than it's worth. There are variety of other finish products that give a harder, easier finish. It's also by far not the only way to get a warmer amber tint.

[mtmpenn]

Re: Finishing Question: Rubbing gloss clear to satin...

Thanks...

I'm open to hearing other suggestions for the warm amber color.

I'm not sold on shellac yet. It is one of several finishing methods I am currently evaluating on my test piece.

I am not sure what you mean about shellac being more trouble than it is worth. Padding on thinned shellac seemed very easy. 5 coats in an hour, sandable a few hours after that. Do you mean because of its limited protection compared to varnish/poly?