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New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

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  • #31
    Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

    If it's just that you want to know what to do, and where, that comes from being familiar with xover design and knowing what to place to work on whatever. Everyone designs differently, and you can't be spoon-fed to understand how it will work for you.

    If it's about operational procedures and how PCD works, I think the buttons have all been covered.

    I think what you are looking for is the 'art' part of speaker design, and you have to learn that for yourself.
    Later,
    Wolf
    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
    "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
    "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

    *InDIYana event website*

    Photobucket pages:
    https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

    My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

      Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
      This is what is contained inside the Response Modeler. I don't know if anyone reads it or not....
      Aww, don't feel so bad, Jeff. I read it!! :D When I first started using the program, I didn't see it right away (so the program was just overwhelming to me), but then I noticed this blue tab. I read it over (nice n' brief) and I was off and running!

      YOu need a big pointy arrow at the blue tab. :rolleyes:
      Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?

      Paul Carmody's DIY Audio Projects
      Twitter: @undefinition1

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

        Originally posted by parodielin View Post
        I am looking for more. For example, what are design considerations when using these files in the PCD. So it's more of a design tutorial rather than using PCD tutorial. I think that's one thing that falls short both in Ray and Vance's books.
        Jeff's program is built around the basics of XO design: order of topologies, placing components in series with a driver, in parallel with them, etc. A person has to understand these basics (and what they do) before PCD or any other software makes sense. Until then it's like sitting in the cockpit of a 747 with no flight experience (to steal an analogy I came up with this morning).

        To learn the basics of XO design and topologies, you need look no further than a David Weems book or Speaker Building 201. Vance doesn't cover it well at all, in my opinion. Actually, now that I think of it, even the basics of "this is a 1st order crossover, this is a 2nd order crossover" is pretty readily available on the internet. I guess the thing to keep in mind is that the "calculators" and "textbook formulas" from these books and websites are the very basics; and as soon as you have a bit of a grasp on those rules, it's time to bend and break them. (Learning music theory was no different in college. The first two semesters were all classical theory--which is pretty much useless in today's music. The third semester bends the rules to understand things like romantic music and some impressionistic music. Then fourth semester, you completely break all the rules of traditional theory and modern music finally makes sense.)
        Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?

        Paul Carmody's DIY Audio Projects
        Twitter: @undefinition1

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Hey, Jeff-

          My bad- I'm used to the older sessions where the user guide was a separate excel file. I still have those, and actually refer to them. Now that I know the button is within the program, it won't be so difficult. Sometimes I don't see something in front of my face.

          Later,
          Wolf
          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

          *InDIYana event website*

          Photobucket pages:
          https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

          My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

            I think you are asking for the insight and foresight that comes with expertise. For many knowledge- and task-based skills, an essential difference for experts is that when faced with a myriad of options, the expert knows which is correct, and may not know how to describe the genesis of that knowledge. In fact, for complex tasks, it is never easy to reduce successful outcomes to algorithms.

            The path to expertise for these skills, practice.

            Originally posted by parodielin View Post
            I am looking for more. For example, what are design considerations when using these files in the PCD. So it's more of a design tutorial rather than using PCD tutorial. I think that's one thing that falls short both in Ray and Vance's books.

            Comment


            • #36
              Go

              Originally posted by parodielin View Post
              I am looking for more. For example, what are design considerations when using these files in the PCD. So it's more of a design tutorial rather than using PCD tutorial. I think that's one thing that falls short both in Ray and Vance's books.
              I've been around this all my life and I'm just beginning to understand. I don't know if this will work for you but it helps me. Model different speakers in pcd and just play with it. Jeff's programs are easy to use and very intuitive. He's done a good job of making a complex task simple. I haven't used sound-easy or the other professional programs but I bet they're more complicated and a lot harder to use. I know your frustration.There are a lot of things I don't know.
              ________
              Dating Advice Forums
              Last edited by dano; 04-28-2011, 07:44 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Hey, Jeff-

                Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                My bad- I'm used to the older sessions where the user guide was a separate excel file. I still have those, and actually refer to them. Now that I know the button is within the program, it won't be so difficult. Sometimes I don't see something in front of my face.

                Later,
                Wolf
                This was never a separate file. I has always been there.
                Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Hey, Jeff-

                  I misspoke- it's a .pdf. It's in the "PCD 6.0 guide" file, as a .pdf.

                  I don't know why you say it's never been a separate file when I have it as a separate file.

                  I said I was familiar with the older revisions with the file, and I do have it that way.
                  Later,
                  Wolf
                  "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                  "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                  "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                  "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                  *InDIYana event website*

                  Photobucket pages:
                  https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                  My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Hey, Jeff-

                    Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                    I misspoke- it's a .pdf. It's in the "PCD 6.0 guide" file, as a .pdf.

                    I don't know why you say it's never been a separate file when I have it as a separate file.

                    I said I was familiar with the older revisions with the file, and I do have it that way.
                    Later,
                    Wolf
                    I'll start over. This is already too drawn out as it is. In my post above I said here is the "The Frequency Response Modeler" User Guide. That one has always been in the file, never a separate file that I can remember. I believe you may be referring to the PCD User Guide. I was not. No one reads it either though ;)

                    Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Hey, Jeff-

                      Agreed- I was not looking at the right one either...I was looking at PCD.

                      Man- what is with me today???.......:rolleyes::rolleyes:
                      Sorry, Jeff. :o
                      BTW- I do read the PCD one...
                      Later,
                      Wolf
                      "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                      "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                      "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                      "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                      *InDIYana event website*

                      Photobucket pages:
                      https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                      My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

                        Originally posted by diy speaker guy View Post
                        PCD already has a pretty decent guide created by the author. Also, Wolf has now published 4 excellent blog entries wrt general PCD usage. Fortunately, PCD is also extremely intuitive so it's fairly easy to learn once you get into it.
                        Agreed. I'm not asking for a new PCD users guide, I'm just suggesting that working out the example design in PCD would be very helpful to those of us that are still in the steep part of the speaker and XO design learning curve. I understand the urge to say "learn the theory and then use the model". However, the models are powerful tools that beg to be made part something akin to "speaker and XO design for dummies".

                        This isn't supposed to sound like a rant. My apologies if it did.

                        FWIW - I'll return to beating on my eWave XO design later this week. This thread has certainly expanded my knowledge on how to do it. I'll try parallel design paths of measured vs not measured to see how they compare.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

                          Originally posted by donprice View Post
                          FWIW - I'll return to beating on my eWave XO design later this week. This thread has certainly expanded my knowledge on how to do it. I'll try parallel design paths of measured vs not measured to see how they compare.
                          If that has any form of waveguide involved, you really should measure your response, and the 'without measurement' method might not help much if at all. Every waveguide will react differently with every different horn driver, and therefore- it's a 'cabinet effect' instead of another issue.

                          Later,
                          Wolf
                          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                          *InDIYana event website*

                          Photobucket pages:
                          https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                          My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

                            And Hornresp or MJK's sheets are easier for the new guy NOT building horns or QWTL? Really?


                            Originally posted by diy speaker guy View Post

                            Step 3 - I would not agree that WinISD should be included in any list of easiest, fastest, most accurate box simulators, as it fails on all 3 counts. In the case of tall boxes (MLTL) or long ports, WinISD comes up far short and can be incredibly inaccurate. A simulator capable of predicting box and port resonances like Hornresp or MJK's Mathcad worksheets (preferred for this job) are far more accurate - and Hornresp is far faster and easier than WinISD too. Using such an advanced program as these makes Step 4 redundant, as it's already been done as part of Step 3.
                            I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.
                            OS MTMs http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=220388
                            Swope TM http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=221818
                            Econowave and Audio Nirvana AN10 fullrange http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=216841
                            Imperial Russian Stouts http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...=1#post1840444
                            LECBOS. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...ghlight=lecbos

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

                              Originally posted by donprice View Post
                              Agreed. I'm not asking for a new PCD users guide, I'm just suggesting that working out the example design in PCD would be very helpful to those of us that are still in the steep part of the speaker and XO design learning curve. I understand the urge to say "learn the theory and then use the model". However, the models are powerful tools that beg to be made part something akin to "speaker and XO design for dummies".

                              This isn't supposed to sound like a rant. My apologies if it did.

                              FWIW - I'll return to beating on my eWave XO design later this week. This thread has certainly expanded my knowledge on how to do it. I'll try parallel design paths of measured vs not measured to see how they compare.
                              I supply sample frd and zma files along with sample crossover files just for the purpose of getting a feel for how things work and gaining a bit more insight into crossover design. These come with the User Guide download.
                              Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: New FAQ - How to design without measurement gear

                                Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                                These come with the User Guide download.
                                That's the file I was referring to earlier!! :D:rolleyes:
                                Oh well...
                                Wolf
                                "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                                "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                                "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                                "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                                *InDIYana event website*

                                Photobucket pages:
                                https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                                My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                                Comment

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