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Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

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  • roundabout
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    It is so refreshing to see a system not designed for Lawrence Welk or Steely Dan.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pete Schumacher
    replied
    Re: Give them a voice!

    Originally posted by Paul Carmody View Post

    Been listening to them the last few days, trying out different XO points, adding/removing BSC. So far, I think it's on the right track. The big surprise to me so far is that they are actually quite good at resolving micro details in recordings (ie: little nuances I've never heard before). On audiophile-esque recordings, things are a little on the dull side... certainly not bad, but a well-designed metal cone design brings out the last bits of shimmer in those recordings. However, switch over to some rock, and it's just heavenly See, I've always thought metal coned designs tended to bring out a bit too much grit in rock music--and not really in a good way. Paper cones, with their penchant for even-order distortion, tend to smooth things over just a bit, and suddenly guitar amps truly start sounding like they're in the room with you.

    I did some SPL drag this afternoon, and I'm glad to say that these are able to go extremely loud without troubles. I tried listening to music at a 95 dB cruising volume (measured at 3m away, in a large living room), which was really loud. But why stop there? So I pushed it up to around a 103 dB average... that's "shake your pants leg" loud, and the system was definitely up to the task. Will it go louder? I don't know; I had enough for one day.

    I was curious about how the whole "overheating resistor" thing would play out. The mid is using a single Dayton 10 Watt non-inductive resistor, as is the tweeter. It was fine until the listening level went over 100 dB; then it started to get pretty warm. Hot enough to burn something? I don't know... maybe, given enough time. So, when I put the final system together, I think I'll go for just a plain 20 watt wirewound... I mean, am I really all that worried about inductance at that point?

    Which brings me to my last thought: once you get past 95 dB, ideas like "imaging," "soundstage," "resolve" are pretty much moot. It's just plain loud. The only concern at that point is basic tonal balance; are the lows, mids, highs balanced with one another, or is one more prevalent. Just some food for thought for those who lust after "high sensitivity" designs.
    I sure wish I could put the Peerless 3-ways I've got next to yours. I just got through cranking Tool's "Vicarious" at full volume. From what I can infer from the amp gain and peak voltage from the sound card, that works out to maybe 50W peak power, absolutely clip free from the Hafler 500. At 10' from the pair, the SPLs are insane for listening. These things flat out ROCK, like I'm sure yours do.

    I was hoping to bring them to Iowa, but it looks like they need the extra slots for other folks. Maybe I'll bring them anyway and set them up in the other room just for giggles. I hope you bring those Paul.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thomas Brown
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    Paul, you don't have to do any 'flea-fart detail' final tweaking, or even finish the x-overs or boxes, just stick 'em in a crate and send 'em out to california! I have a nice space set up for them already. :D :D

    Leave a comment:


  • ckmoore
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    Exterminate! Exterminate! :D

    Leave a comment:


  • fastbike1
    replied
    The Daleks are back

    For us older guys: when I saw the picture with the XO's on top, I got a real Dr. Who / Daleks vibe. Gave me a bit of a giggle. :D

    Leave a comment:


  • LouC
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    Paul what's your take on those woofers? How high are you crossing them? I've got 4 out in the garage and would welcome your thoughts.

    The big wire wounds aren't all that bad either. You could always run 2-3 "regulars" in parallel too (if you have the right values) You know somebody's gonna crank those to 11 someday... :eek:;)

    Leave a comment:


  • dian1511
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    Glad to hear they are passing your "sound" tests. Did you ever decide how you are going to connect the top to bottom xos?

    Darren

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Carmody
    replied
    Re: Give them a voice!


    Been listening to them the last few days, trying out different XO points, adding/removing BSC. So far, I think it's on the right track. The big surprise to me so far is that they are actually quite good at resolving micro details in recordings (ie: little nuances I've never heard before). On audiophile-esque recordings, things are a little on the dull side... certainly not bad, but a well-designed metal cone design brings out the last bits of shimmer in those recordings. However, switch over to some rock, and it's just heavenly See, I've always thought metal coned designs tended to bring out a bit too much grit in rock music--and not really in a good way. Paper cones, with their penchant for even-order distortion, tend to smooth things over just a bit, and suddenly guitar amps truly start sounding like they're in the room with you.

    I did some SPL drag this afternoon, and I'm glad to say that these are able to go extremely loud without troubles. I tried listening to music at a 95 dB cruising volume (measured at 3m away, in a large living room), which was really loud. But why stop there? So I pushed it up to around a 103 dB average... that's "shake your pants leg" loud, and the system was definitely up to the task. Will it go louder? I don't know; I had enough for one day.

    I was curious about how the whole "overheating resistor" thing would play out. The mid is using a single Dayton 10 Watt non-inductive resistor, as is the tweeter. It was fine until the listening level went over 100 dB; then it started to get pretty warm. Hot enough to burn something? I don't know... maybe, given enough time. So, when I put the final system together, I think I'll go for just a plain 20 watt wirewound... I mean, am I really all that worried about inductance at that point?

    Which brings me to my last thought: once you get past 95 dB, ideas like "imaging," "soundstage," "resolve" are pretty much moot. It's just plain loud. The only concern at that point is basic tonal balance; are the lows, mids, highs balanced with one another, or is one more prevalent. Just some food for thought for those who lust after "high sensitivity" designs.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • ligs
    replied
    Re: Progress. Boxes are built.

    Originally posted by Paul Carmody View Post
    Well, they have a few rough spots, but nothing Bondo won't fix. In the next few days, I plan to add some bracing, install the drivers and then they can meet Mr. Microphone. I'm getting very excited to find out what kind of sounds I can get from these!
    I really like this two-piece design. Because of the relatively low cost, how about design another set using all metal mid and high range units so we can answer the age old question "paper vs metal, how do they sound different?" I am assuming in the woofer range the difference will probably be less significant?
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Flint
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    Speakons are sweet. You can get the shiny silver version, which is better looking. PE might not have this one, but it's out there.

    Leave a comment:


  • GregKramer
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    I am really like the looks of this project. These should be just what my brother would want in his "man cave" / Garage!

    Leave a comment:


  • Wolf
    replied
    These would be quicker and easier...

    ...than the plastic-nanner-jacks:

    http://meniscusaudio.com/multi-contact-p-792.html



    You don't have to use the plastic parts, just the jacks themselves. A little glue at the most, and you're golden! (pun intended!)

    Later,
    Wolf

    Leave a comment:


  • dian1511
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    A pair of these, flush mounted onto the top of the bass bin using a small plate, and then a pair of banana plugs in the bottom of the MT. Put the MT XO up top so you don't need so many wires to connect the two boxes.

    Looks like the plugs could be mounted very simply, with a drilled hole and a touch of epoxy.

    Interconnects would be invisible.



    Pete,

    I just wanted to be clear about your idea. So the female receptacles would be flush meaning flush with the edge of the red and black plastic? So that the banana plugs epoxied in the top of the bottom box would basically touch the bottom of the top box once the plugs are mated into the receptacles? If so, would you recommend any padding between the boxes to prevent transfer of vibration?

    Thanks,

    Darren

    Leave a comment:


  • Pete Schumacher
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    A pair of these, flush mounted onto the top of the bass bin using a small plate, and then a pair of banana plugs in the bottom of the MT. Put the MT XO up top so you don't need so many wires to connect the two boxes.

    Looks like the plugs could be mounted very simply, with a drilled hole and a touch of epoxy.

    Interconnects would be invisible.



    Leave a comment:


  • absolootbs
    replied
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    Originally posted by dian1511 View Post
    What about wires from the bottom of the MT and top of the bass box with some form of connecting ends so that the connectors are plugged in before the MT box is set on top. The connections will hide beneath the MT box. That way you would only need one pair of terminals at either the back of the bass box of MT box.

    Whatever you decide, please take pictures, so we can see what you did.

    Thanks,

    Darren
    building on darren's idea... this might not be the cheapest idea, but it certainly would be cool (imho): what if you mounted four banana plugs (or some other kind of male connector) into the bottom of the mt cabinet like feet/spikes. then mount four banana jacks (or some other kind of female connector) into the top of the woofer cabinet in corresponding locations. the mt box itself would then "plug into" or "dock on" the woofer box. that way there would be no wires to hide, and the male/female connections would hold the mt box in place atop the woofer box, while also serving to pass the connections from one box to the other.

    Leave a comment:

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