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Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

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  • #16
    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

    I love the design, and I am actually going to do something very similar, using the Swopes, sitting on RSS315HT's.

    My early design is eerily similar in angles too.
    My projects
    https://picasaweb.google.com/112307725038877176664

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    • #17
      Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

      Thomas, I was not pooping on anything, if you were referring to me. I asked a serious question.

      As for driver cost - I find little correlation with driver performance vs. cost. You can find $30 5"-7" mids that are sufficient for top notch high end performance if you pick carefully/wisely and you can find $500 drivers that are essentially crap. Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.

      -Chris

      Originally posted by Thomas Brown View Post
      You know, Paul, you post a really cool design using drivers that are about $100 per speaker ($200 per pair) and people immediately start pooping on it. Now I'm guessing if you where to use some of the "holy grail" drivers, maybe there would be less pooping and more praise, quite possibly the complete opposite. After seeing the pictures of the "swopes", checking out your website, I think this is a great idea. A "throwback" (for lack of a more technical b.s. term) with a really cool cabinet design. With the cabinet design, it leaves tons of options for finishes, As soon as I saw them my mind started turnin'. I am sure the final design will come out fantastic, I would be proud to build and own a pair. Not everyone can afford, to spend $100+ on a single driver, and some of us can't jump on the buyouts due to $$ flow. Here we get looks, affordable (in its relativity), a little bit of a challenge in cabinet making (again in its relativity), and drivers that might be around for a little while. Just a horrific idea! :rolleyes:

      Anyways, I am subscribed to the thread and looking forward to someday, enjoying the "sound of paper" with Ride the Lightning on vinyl playing at ear bleeding volumes, possibly distorted enough to blow something up (and not have to pay out the ar$e to replace said blowed up component).

      edit: Seems I type slow and so has some of the poop flow.

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      • #18
        Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

        Why not try out the new NE25VTS?
        I am trolling you.

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        • #19
          Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

          Originally posted by WmAx View Post
          Thomas, I was not pooping on anything, if you were referring to me. I asked a serious question.

          As for driver cost - I find little correlation with driver performance vs. cost. You can find $30 5"-7" mids that are sufficient for top notch high end performance if you pick carefully/wisely and you can find $500 drivers that are essentially crap. Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.

          -Chris
          Chris, I was not directing my comments directly at you, more of a broad general statement about all the comments. Everyone here has there ideas/opinions, some being threw extensive experiance (I do not fall into that category). The design just struck a fancy with me. I am a fan of paper drivers, monkey coffins, LOUD music, and my wallet is a little light.

          Originally posted by WmAx View Post
          Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.
          Sometimes "great" can just be enjoying what one has, as not even the "greatest" system/set-up/room/music/etc..etc.. will be that way to everyone.
          THOMAS BROWN aka "STINKY"

          I've got an idea - an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about. - Peter Griffin

          I DON'T CARE WHAT KIND OF MUSIC YOU LISTEN TO, OR LIKE.
          SHUT UP, PUT DOWN THE WALLS OF PRETENSION FOR 1 SECOND AND JUST LISTEN TO THE SONGS
          - SCOTT IAN

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          • #20
            Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

            It came off as pretty critical and sarcastic, particularly given Paul's existing designs. Also that you were attaching a lot of significance to the "classic paper sound" comment. The design objectives seemed clear to me. It seemed to hit some hot button of yours.

            Originally posted by WmAx View Post
            Thomas, I was not pooping on anything, if you were referring to me. I asked a serious question.

            As for driver cost - I find little correlation with driver performance vs. cost. You can find $30 5"-7" mids that are sufficient for top notch high end performance if you pick carefully/wisely and you can find $500 drivers that are essentially crap. Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.

            -Chris
            Last edited by fastbike1; 10-23-2010, 10:41 AM.
            I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.
            OS MTMs http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=220388
            Swope TM http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=221818
            Econowave and Audio Nirvana AN10 fullrange http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=216841
            Imperial Russian Stouts http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...=1#post1840444
            LECBOS. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...ghlight=lecbos

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            • #21
              Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

              While I agree that, technically, a cast frame is better, I was suprised at how good a stamped peerless can sound. That's what we had in in our budget design below and it played really well. Also surface mounted.

              I like the idea of active eq though. How about one of those 4x100 sure modules and a two way analog eq...

              I know, defeats the simplicity part...

              audioheuristics isn't around right now...

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                Originally posted by Paul Carmody View Post
                Actually, both the woofer and mid have a stamped frame. And the fact that the mid has a stamped frame allows for it to be surface-mounted (they're desined to look nice surface-mounted). I recognize that the higher-end Peerless drivers have certain technological improvements, but I don't feel like flush-mounting that thing with its cast aluminum, truncated frame... neither would most builders.

                Stamped-frames are not that evil.
                If you were there at the DIY Dayton where my Whetstones design debuted, not all the driver mounting screws were evenly torqued in one of the two stamped-frame drivers, and two out of three judges noted an audible buzz in one speaker. I noticed it too during later testing, and found that applying more torque to one of the screws quieted down the buzzing. The driver's normal operation was enough stimulus to excite the frame. The job of the frame is to transmit the part of the reaction force from the cone and voice coil that isn't absorbed by the motor's own inertia to the baffle of the enclosure, and if the frame isn't very rigid, then it will bend, twist, and deform even under a normal music signal.

                As for the woofer having a stamped frame, I didn't say anything about the woofer - I specifically mentioned the mid driver, because the frame is being excited much closer to its natural resonance, and that's why you'll be sacrificing detail and openness with the stamped-frame mid. The whole "stamped frames aren't so bad" meme only applies to bass drivers, which aren't exciting the frame near its own physical natural frequency.
                Best Regards,

                Rory Buszka

                Taterworks Audio

                "The work of the individual still remains the spark which moves mankind ahead, even more than teamwork." - Igor I. Sikorsky

                If it works, but you don't know why it works, then you haven't done any engineering.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                  Originally posted by markk View Post
                  NHT 11-075 10" sub ?........nice:D

                  My first two piecer was over a parallel pair per side in 2 cuft sealed......talk about midbass slam! Those were truly an awesome deal when they were around. Glad i got mine while the gettin was good.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                    One of the main advantages of "classic-style" 3-ways in big boxes is the potential for tremendous SPL. Have you considered using pro drivers like the Eminence Alpha or that B&C mylar compression driver Zaph reviewed? Your ears will turn to pudding before they start distorting, and the efficiency is hard to argue with.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                      Originally posted by markk View Post
                      While I agree that, technically, a cast frame is better, I was suprised at how good a stamped peerless can sound. That's what we had in in our budget design below and it played really well. Also surface mounted.

                      I like the idea of active eq though. How about one of those 4x100 sure modules and a two way analog eq...

                      I know, defeats the simplicity part...

                      Is that Maple? I use to love school/library furniture made with it.
                      "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy." --Winston Churchill

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                        Originally posted by spasticteapot View Post
                        One of the main advantages of "classic-style" 3-ways in big boxes is the potential for tremendous SPL. Have you considered using pro drivers like the Eminence Alpha or that B&C mylar compression driver Zaph reviewed? Your ears will turn to pudding before they start distorting, and the efficiency is hard to argue with.
                        There's still the law of physics to consider, and a reasonable size box sacrifices a lot of low end if you want even higher sensitivity.

                        Funny thing is, I've started construction on a very similar system, using the HDS 850439 as both mid and woofer, with a pair doing woofer duty. I'm sure they won't have the same low end that Paul's 10" will, but it should be interesting to hear them both in Iowa, eh?

                        I like it Paul. You always seem to get the most from the drivers you use. Can't wait to hear them.
                        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                          There's still the law of physics to consider, and a reasonable size box sacrifices a lot of low end if you want even higher sensitivity.
                          Place emphasis on big box. The Dayton Classic 15 should probably work just fine an all counts, and it wouldn't need an enclosure too much larger.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                            Originally posted by Taterworks View Post
                            If you were there at the DIY Dayton where my Whetstones design debuted, not all the driver mounting screws were evenly torqued in one of the two stamped-frame drivers, and two out of three judges noted an audible buzz in one speaker. I noticed it too during later testing, and found that applying more torque to one of the screws quieted down the buzzing. The driver's normal operation was enough stimulus to excite the frame. The job of the frame is to transmit the part of the reaction force from the cone and voice coil that isn't absorbed by the motor's own inertia to the baffle of the enclosure, and if the frame isn't very rigid, then it will bend, twist, and deform even under a normal music signal.
                            That is simply a model/unit specific issue or a problem with the installation. I have analyzed this issue in depth, and a stamped frame simply does not produce audio degradation as a LONE factor, and I have explored this in depth, and at a large range of SPL ranges, test signals and real world conditions.

                            -Chris

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                              Originally posted by Mayhem13 View Post
                              NHT 11-075 10" sub ?........nice:D

                              My first two piecer was over a parallel pair per side in 2 cuft sealed......talk about midbass slam! Those were truly an awesome deal when they were around. Glad i got mine while the gettin was good.
                              Actually, the woofer is a peerless 830500. They're the old xls 12" variants. I bought them a number of years ago and they just sat in my closet until deepsurplus was blowing out the sub cabinets. I think I paid ~$50 a cabinet for those maple ones. The peerless is an excellent low distortion sub, but needs an LT to get the most out of it.
                              audioheuristics isn't around right now...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

                                Originally posted by robwest View Post
                                Is that Maple? I use to love school/library furniture made with it.
                                I got sort of burnt out on maple for a while, but the cabs were such a good deal, well, I'm liking maple again...
                                audioheuristics isn't around right now...

                                Comment

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