Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

[ckmoore]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

I love the design, and I am actually going to do something very similar, using the Swopes, sitting on RSS315HT's.

My early design is eerily similar in angles too.

[WmAx]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

Thomas, I was not pooping on anything, if you were referring to me. I asked a serious question.

As for driver cost - I find little correlation with driver performance vs. cost. You can find $30 5"-7" mids that are sufficient for top notch high end performance if you pick carefully/wisely and you can find $500 drivers that are essentially crap. Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.

-Chris

You know, Paul, you post a really cool design using drivers that are about $100 per speaker ($200 per pair) and people immediately start pooping on it. Now I'm guessing if you where to use some of the "holy grail" drivers, maybe there would be less pooping and more praise, quite possibly the complete opposite. After seeing the pictures of the "swopes", checking out your website, I think this is a great idea. A "throwback" (for lack of a more technical b.s. term) with a really cool cabinet design. With the cabinet design, it leaves tons of options for finishes, As soon as I saw them my mind started turnin'. I am sure the final design will come out fantastic, I would be proud to build and own a pair. Not everyone can afford, to spend $100+ on a single driver, and some of us can't jump on the buyouts due to $$ flow. Here we get looks, affordable (in its relativity), a little bit of a challenge in cabinet making (again in its relativity), and drivers that might be around for a little while. Just a horrific idea! :rolleyes:

Anyways, I am subscribed to the thread and looking forward to someday, enjoying the "sound of paper" with Ride the Lightning on vinyl playing at ear bleeding volumes, possibly distorted enough to blow something up (and not have to pay out the ar$e to replace said blowed up component).

edit: Seems I type slow and so has some of the poop flow.

[MSaturn]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

Why not try out the new NE25VTS?

[Thomas Brown]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

Thomas, I was not pooping on anything, if you were referring to me. I asked a serious question.

As for driver cost - I find little correlation with driver performance vs. cost. You can find $30 5"-7" mids that are sufficient for top notch high end performance if you pick carefully/wisely and you can find $500 drivers that are essentially crap. Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.

-Chris

Chris, I was not directing my comments directly at you, more of a broad general statement about all the comments. Everyone here has there ideas/opinions, some being threw extensive experiance (I do not fall into that category). The design just struck a fancy with me. I am a fan of paper drivers, monkey coffins, LOUD music, and my wallet is a little light.

Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.

Sometimes "great" can just be enjoying what one has, as not even the "greatest" system/set-up/room/music/etc..etc.. will be that way to everyone.

[fastbike1]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

It came off as pretty critical and sarcastic, particularly given Paul's existing designs. Also that you were attaching a lot of significance to the "classic paper sound" comment. The design objectives seemed clear to me. It seemed to hit some hot button of yours.

Thomas, I was not pooping on anything, if you were referring to me. I asked a serious question.

As for driver cost - I find little correlation with driver performance vs. cost. You can find $30 5"-7" mids that are sufficient for top notch high end performance if you pick carefully/wisely and you can find $500 drivers that are essentially crap. Today, a great speaker system has more to do with competent engineering/design/execution, not driver cost.

-Chris

[markk]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

While I agree that, technically, a cast frame is better, I was suprised at how good a stamped peerless can sound. That's what we had in in our budget design below and it played really well. Also surface mounted.

I like the idea of active eq though. How about one of those 4x100 sure modules and a two way analog eq...

I know, defeats the simplicity part...

[Taterworks]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

Actually, both the woofer and mid have a stamped frame. And the fact that the mid has a stamped frame allows for it to be surface-mounted (they're desined to look nice surface-mounted). I recognize that the higher-end Peerless drivers have certain technological improvements, but I don't feel like flush-mounting that thing with its cast aluminum, truncated frame... neither would most builders.

Stamped-frames are not that evil.

If you were there at the DIY Dayton where my Whetstones design debuted, not all the driver mounting screws were evenly torqued in one of the two stamped-frame drivers, and two out of three judges noted an audible buzz in one speaker. I noticed it too during later testing, and found that applying more torque to one of the screws quieted down the buzzing. The driver's normal operation was enough stimulus to excite the frame. The job of the frame is to transmit the part of the reaction force from the cone and voice coil that isn't absorbed by the motor's own inertia to the baffle of the enclosure, and if the frame isn't very rigid, then it will bend, twist, and deform even under a normal music signal.

As for the woofer having a stamped frame, I didn't say anything about the woofer - I specifically mentioned the mid driver, because the frame is being excited much closer to its natural resonance, and that's why you'll be sacrificing detail and openness with the stamped-frame mid. The whole "stamped frames aren't so bad" meme only applies to bass drivers, which aren't exciting the frame near its own physical natural frequency.

[Mayhem13]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

NHT 11-075 10" sub ?........nice:D

My first two piecer was over a parallel pair per side in 2 cuft sealed......talk about midbass slam! Those were truly an awesome deal when they were around. Glad i got mine while the gettin was good.

[spasticteapot]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

One of the main advantages of "classic-style" 3-ways in big boxes is the potential for tremendous SPL. Have you considered using pro drivers like the Eminence Alpha or that B&C mylar compression driver Zaph reviewed? Your ears will turn to pudding before they start distorting, and the efficiency is hard to argue with.

[robwest]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

While I agree that, technically, a cast frame is better, I was suprised at how good a stamped peerless can sound. That's what we had in in our budget design below and it played really well. Also surface mounted.

I like the idea of active eq though. How about one of those 4x100 sure modules and a two way analog eq...

I know, defeats the simplicity part...

Is that Maple? I use to love school/library furniture made with it.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

One of the main advantages of "classic-style" 3-ways in big boxes is the potential for tremendous SPL. Have you considered using pro drivers like the Eminence Alpha or that B&C mylar compression driver Zaph reviewed? Your ears will turn to pudding before they start distorting, and the efficiency is hard to argue with.

There's still the law of physics to consider, and a reasonable size box sacrifices a lot of low end if you want even higher sensitivity.

Funny thing is, I've started construction on a very similar system, using the HDS 850439 as both mid and woofer, with a pair doing woofer duty. I'm sure they won't have the same low end that Paul's 10" will, but it should be interesting to hear them both in Iowa, eh?

I like it Paul. You always seem to get the most from the drivers you use. Can't wait to hear them.

[spasticteapot]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

There's still the law of physics to consider, and a reasonable size box sacrifices a lot of low end if you want even higher sensitivity.

Place emphasis on big box. The Dayton Classic 15 should probably work just fine an all counts, and it wouldn't need an enclosure too much larger.

[WmAx]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

If you were there at the DIY Dayton where my Whetstones design debuted, not all the driver mounting screws were evenly torqued in one of the two stamped-frame drivers, and two out of three judges noted an audible buzz in one speaker. I noticed it too during later testing, and found that applying more torque to one of the screws quieted down the buzzing. The driver's normal operation was enough stimulus to excite the frame. The job of the frame is to transmit the part of the reaction force from the cone and voice coil that isn't absorbed by the motor's own inertia to the baffle of the enclosure, and if the frame isn't very rigid, then it will bend, twist, and deform even under a normal music signal.

That is simply a model/unit specific issue or a problem with the installation. I have analyzed this issue in depth, and a stamped frame simply does not produce audio degradation as a LONE factor, and I have explored this in depth, and at a large range of SPL ranges, test signals and real world conditions.

-Chris

[markk]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

NHT 11-075 10" sub ?........nice:D

My first two piecer was over a parallel pair per side in 2 cuft sealed......talk about midbass slam! Those were truly an awesome deal when they were around. Glad i got mine while the gettin was good.

Actually, the woofer is a peerless 830500. They're the old xls 12" variants. I bought them a number of years ago and they just sat in my closet until deepsurplus was blowing out the sub cabinets. I think I paid ~$50 a cabinet for those maple ones. The peerless is an excellent low distortion sub, but needs an LT to get the most out of it.

[markk]

Re: Next up in the shop: a LOUD, paper-cone 3 way

Is that Maple? I use to love school/library furniture made with it.

I got sort of burnt out on maple for a while, but the cabs were such a good deal, well, I'm liking maple again...