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  • #61
    Re: Peerless 3 woofer 3-way under way

    Originally posted by highfigh View Post
    Have you tried the Peerless 830874 woofers? I'm going to be using a Vifa BC25SG15-04 tweeter and 2 of the woofers in a tower that's not too different in size/shape. It's for a customer and I let him try the pair I built with one woofer as a test and his immediate reaction was that he wanted that pair. I'll wire the woofers in parallel and just go with 4 Ohm impedance since he'll be using an Audio Research tube power amp. Any thoughts on this combo?
    I've not tried them personally. Their posted response plots are nearly identical to this particular incarnation of the 6.5" HDS though. You could probably drop 3 of them into this crossover and be real close to where you want.

    As MTM, they should do quite well. I'm crossing the mid at 2300, which the Vifa tweet should easily do.
    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
    "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

      The black clamps with red/orange plastic pads look like they may be from Harbor Freight. I assume you have already noticed that they can't be tightened to any extreme and if you're like me, you already broke at least one. If you shear the plastic parts by tightening them too much, you can drill them out where the parts broke and use a #8-24 screw with a nut on the opposite side. I used nylock nuts because I use them for just about everything and they don't back off but the real benefit is that they'll be about 4 times stronger than they were. At $4 for a 12" clamp, it's hard to beat unless you buy the metal ones (I bought 6 more today). BTW- the metal clamps are on sale again and since it's impossible to have enough clamps, now is the time to buy.

      18" bar clamp-
      http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch...amp-96211.html

      Also, Rockler has 19mm 11 ply Baltic Birch cabinet grade plywood on sale, too.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

        Originally posted by highfigh View Post
        The black clamps with red/orange plastic pads look like they may be from Harbor Freight. I assume you have already noticed that they can't be tightened to any extreme and if you're like me, you already broke at least one. If you shear the plastic parts by tightening them too much, you can drill them out where the parts broke and use a #8-24 screw with a nut on the opposite side. I used nylock nuts because I use them for just about everything and they don't back off but the real benefit is that they'll be about 4 times stronger than they were. At $4 for a 12" clamp, it's hard to beat unless you buy the metal ones (I bought 6 more today). BTW- the metal clamps are on sale again and since it's impossible to have enough clamps, now is the time to buy.

        18" bar clamp-
        http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch...amp-96211.html

        Also, Rockler has 19mm 11 ply Baltic Birch cabinet grade plywood on sale, too.
        Good eye, and yes, three of them have already failed, won't hold the clamp anymore. But the remaining clamps work very well.

        I got some some listening time in today with DoubleTap. These things are REALLY sensitive. We made the determination to pad down the mid and tweeter a total of 2dB, pretty much across the band. After applying the EQ in a smooth line, the sound stage seemed to dial right in. I'll adjust the mid range LP knee with a bit heavier dose of damping to the transfer function as well. I'll post the sim with the modified values a little later.

        It was a good day.
        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

          It was a good day.
          Haha, yes it was ... except for the 1000w burst of white noise.
          Vapor Audio

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

            Nice job, Pete! I always wondered how to route holes for drivers with those odd flat sides! Great idea!
            The Past is history. The Future is a mystery. Today is a gift; that's why its called the Present. (Grand Master Oogway, Kung Fu Panda)

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

              Well, crappy pic, but here they are, ready for delivery to my mom for Christmas this afternoon. Hopefully, I can get some better light and get a nicer picture before the day is over.

              Just finished up the paint the last couple days. Front baffle is a fleck black, with flat back paint over that. I didn't want the multiple color flecks to show, just the texture. Turned out nice, and the wife really likes the look.

              The sides, back and top are all in a textured brown, with subtle highlights.

              Sounds great. I can't wait to see the look on her face. She has absolutely no idea.

              Merry Christmas to all!!!
              And a Happy New Year!!!




              Took one with a flash to get a better idea of color, but the artifacts are irritating.

              R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
              Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

              95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
              "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                Looks like they turned out well- any possibility of other photos?

                I have been playing with the equalizer in my Denon receiver to see if it's just a matter of padding the tweeters, or something more drastic. I started with the EQ and then angled them back, using a rectangular speaker terminal insert that has binding posts on it (they were handy and became a target of opportunity). This raised the front edge about 3/4", which moved the tweeters much closer to the same vertical plane as the upper woofer's voice coil. This also makes the baffle very close to perpendicular to the line of sight when looking at the upper woofer, removing the comb filtering due to the two drivers sending some of the same frequencies from different distances.

                I'll try reversing the polarity of the tweeter with the cabinets sitting vertically, to find out if this makes enough difference but I suspect the tilt will still be needed for the woofers. If so, I'll build another pair of boxes with the back vertical and the baffle tilted back by the same amount. Looks like Vandersteen got this part right, although I'm not a fan of passing the sound from a tweeter through the sound of a woofer.

                The results so far, with equalization (-.5dB @500Hz, 1dB @1KHz, 2dB @ 2KHz, 3dB @4KHz, 4dB @8KHz and 4.5dB @16KHz) and the tilt- excellent sound. Open, nice staging, no phantom sounds outside of the speakers (I installed some panels last Spring), good depth, very even sound as the frequencies go from one extreme to another and best of all, it doesn't feel like my ears are being sucked out of my head because of the phase issues. Not fatiguing at all and it's much easier to adjust the speaker distance settings.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                  I just got a call from my mom.

                  "I just watched the latest version of Phantom of the Opera with Gerard Butler, with my new surround sound. It was incredible."

                  To which my wife replied,

                  "A great movie is a great movie. But a great movie with great sound . . ."

                  And my mom finished her sentence,

                  "Is an incredible experience. I just had to call and thank you again for my surround sound. It's wonderful."

                  I almost teared up.

                  Build your mom a set of speakers. It's worth every ounce of August sweat.
                  R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                  Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                  95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                  "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                    I just got a call from my mom.

                    "I just watched the latest version of Phantom of the Opera with Gerard Butler, with my new surround sound. It was incredible."

                    To which my wife replied,

                    "A great movie is a great movie. But a great movie with great sound . . ."

                    And my mom finished her sentence,

                    "Is an incredible experience. I just had to call and thank you again for my surround sound. It's wonderful."

                    I almost teared up.

                    Build your mom a set of speakers. It's worth every ounce of August sweat.
                    I wonder why more people don't get that.
                    Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                      Pete,
                      These are great looking speakers. Thinking about a similar build, but a two-way TMM design with two of the Peerless buyout woofers mated to a Neo3W-PDRW. Just curious if you think I will miss the dedicated midrange like you used. The Neo3W plays plenty low, so I am thinking about running it down to the 2k region. Thanks!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                        Originally posted by nobby View Post
                        Pete,
                        These are great looking speakers. Thinking about a similar build, but a two-way TMM design with two of the Peerless buyout woofers mated to a Neo3W-PDRW. Just curious if you think I will miss the dedicated midrange like you used. The Neo3W plays plenty low, so I am thinking about running it down to the 2k region. Thanks!
                        Well, I've heard these woofers, which are very similar in many ways to yours, in both two-way, and now three-way configurations. I was pleased with both, for sure. I don't think you'll regret not adding one more to each tower, too much. :D
                        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                          One of the differences between a two way and three way system is intermodulation distortion (IM). Note that our hearing is not as sensitive to IM distortion as harmonic distortion. JohnK has written in the past on IM distortion. IM distortion is created when a driver plays two different frequencies simultaneously, with the IM distortion magnitude dependant on the frequency ratio and displacement. A large midrange driver or two midranges reduces IM distortion by reducing displacement for the same acoustic output. IM distortion for a midrange driver playing 250 Hz and 2500 Hz simultaneously can reach several percent. This is much greater than harmonic distortion for a typical good modern speaker system of 1% or less (-40dB) in the upper bass to high frequencies.

                          One probably would not notice the IM distortion if they only listen to a two way system at low to moderate levels with a 6 1/2 inch midwoofer. By the way, my main system is a two way. I have designed a couple of three ways for other people. Over the years on the message boards I have read different comments by several builders noting how a midwoofer has a cleaner midrange when relieved of its bass duties in a three way system and used only has a midrange.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                            Originally posted by timw View Post
                            One of the differences between a two way and three way system is intermodulation distortion (IM). Note that our hearing is not as sensitive to IM distortion as harmonic distortion. JohnK has written in the past on IM distortion. IM distortion is created when a driver plays two different frequencies simultaneously, with the IM distortion magnitude dependant on the frequency ratio and displacement. A large midrange driver or two midranges reduces IM distortion by reducing displacement for the same acoustic output. IM distortion for a midrange driver playing 250 Hz and 2500 Hz simultaneously can reach several percent. This is much greater than harmonic distortion for a typical good modern speaker system of 1% or less (-40dB) in the upper bass to high frequencies.

                            One probably would not notice the IM distortion if they only listen to a two way system at low to moderate levels with a 6 1/2 inch midwoofer. By the way, my main system is a two way. I have designed a couple of three ways for other people. Over the years on the message boards I have read different comments by several builders noting how a midwoofer has a cleaner midrange when relieved of its bass duties in a three way system and used only has a midrange.
                            That's one of the main reasons I approached this build the way I did. It's pretty obvious when you high pass your 2-way TM at 80Hz compared to driving it full range; you get quite a bit more clean output in the mids when the high pass is engaged. And since I was two woofers short for a pair of 4-woofer 2.5-ways, this 3-way option became the obvious choice. It's something I'll definitely do in the future as well. The blend from woofer to mid is obviously a piece of cake as their sonic qualities are a perfect match already. May have to pick up another set of current Peerless drivers and do this again for myself.
                            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                              <snip>

                              I got some some listening time in today with DoubleTap. These things are REALLY sensitive. We made the determination to pad down the mid and tweeter a total of 2dB, pretty much across the band. After applying the EQ in a smooth line, the sound stage seemed to dial right in. I'll adjust the mid range LP knee with a bit heavier dose of damping to the transfer function as well. I'll post the sim with the modified values a little later.

                              It was a good day.
                              Hey Pete,

                              Love this project plan! Can you enlighten as to the final crossover after the voicing changes you made?

                              Many thanks!
                              SEC DIY 2014 Speaker Show is on! *November 8th*
                              Wanna win a set of Newform Research R30 ribbons?!?!
                              SEC DIY 2014 Thread

                              SEC DIY 2012 Speaker Show
                              SEC DIY 2011 Speaker Show

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Peerless 6 woofer 3-way under way

                                Originally posted by scottq View Post
                                Hey Pete,

                                Love this project plan! Can you enlighten as to the final crossover after the voicing changes you made?

                                Many thanks!
                                Actually, I never got around to making the changes. The final position in my mom's setup had them much closer to the rear wall, which tended to bring the bass up a bit relative to everything else. After letting the receiver make it's room adjustments, there was really nothing left to do.

                                I'd love to apply this setup to the 831735, but just haven't had the time. Cabinet size is about right already, although it would likely need a bit lower tuning. But the XO is probably really close already, since both their impedance and response plots are very similar.
                                R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                                Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                                95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                                "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                                Comment

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