Flat Response

[Zilch]

Re: Flat Response

It would seem audio engineers are well aware of this preference....

Don't know the year, but it's pretty old:



In-room....

[Dennis H]

Re: Flat Response

His room being more reflective, apparently.

You think?

Here is the AR3a anechoic axial response, measured in the Harvard chamber with mid and high level controls set to max:

That looks about like how I remember the AR3 back in the day -- 'where are the highs and lows?' My DIY 3-ways sounded much more balanced to me in my room back then.

[Zilch]

Re: Flat Response

They recommended deployment in corners to bring up the bass.... ;)

[dantheman]

Re: Flat Response

Nice find Zilch. That bass response may actually work out well in my room for a flat response. I need to mess with the switch on the back of my present speakers. It's hard to get really deep bass here without getting some upper bass or midbass (whatever you want to call it) bump. It's a shame about that treble. That reminds me of what my uncle's sounded like. Nice that they thought of a treble knob back then. They could have built speakers that worked for all recordings. I never found a way to get the treble/MR balance right on his speakers. I actually did like the bass though. They reminded me of the $1 movie theater we used to visit often back then. The tonal balance was very similar though it was mono. Wasn't the best movie house, but they didn't mind if you BYOB.

You gotta wonder if recording engineers are still out of touch with what classical listeners want to hear. You'd think they would have figured that out by now, but apparently not looking at Orion owners and SL(certainly no dummy). The forums I'm on about recording/mixing/mastering don't even have sub forums for Classical music or Blues for that matter. Ticks me off. I guess there's not enough market to be much consideration for those genres' fans. However, I've been to the symphony twice, and I never feel a need to crank the treble down on my classical records or CDs. What was that El Greco thingy?;) Hmmmm.

Dan

[r-carpenter]

Re: Flat Response

Roman,
You have it it on the head perfectly. :D

The science is great because you can prove one way or another what is, is what is. And the science is definitely paramount....

BUT: Coorilating it to what we percieve is far more important. Identifying what is important is very important, and all thing should be considered, but are never absolute.

In order for someone to prove that one speaker sounds better then the other, there are must be multiple listeners, multiple DBTs in the control environment. Test like Harman institute does. Until such tests are done and Speaker A with off axis response of such is generally preferred by the majority of listeners to Speaker B with off axis response of other, it's all subjective and individual experiences.

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Flat Response

I'm a bit confused, because according to this page, frequencies between 500 Hz and 10 kHz were downward tilted 1.8 dB in the original, increased to 4.0 dB two weeks ago, and that backed off to 3.2 dB two days ago with version 3.2

There is a lot of experimenting going on. And don't forget that a significant impetus to all this was the addition of the rear tweeter (which, in addition to the improved "sonic image", changed the power response). Those different tilts are in the ASP, correcting, in part, for the power response rise the rear tweeter caused. It is quite possible that different "tilts" will be chosen as the best compromise by different users for different rooms.

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Flat Response

The average in-room response above 1 khz is ~ 3 db less than below 1 khz.

Yep. They got "brighter" with the addition of the rear tweeter (ORION+). It had to be "corrected" eventually, one way or another. Just turning the tweeters down left a midrange "dip" (often described as poor M/T integration). The rev 3 mods are (finally) addressing those issues, along with a few others. I expect that in most rooms rev 3.x will restore roughly the same downward slope that the original ORION had, while addressing those other issues as well.

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Flat Response

"Concert hall realism" . . . the "gold standard" of high fidelity

"High Fidelity" was, and remains, about the *reproduction* of sound from one environment in another. It's not limited to one "genre" of music. The difference now is that most "music" has no "original" sound . . . it is created electronically or in studio, and then "produced" in different environments, including "concerts" and living rooms. "Live" recordings of rock concerts are not done with a pair of mics hung over the stage, like a symphony recording might be (and the rock audience hears nothing "live" or "natural" . . . they hear loudspeakers) . . . they are multi mic (and multi instrument) feeds blended at the mixer for distribution in a different environment. There is no "standard". And particularly there is no such thing as "flat" . . . every channel on the board is compressed, limited, reverbed, equalized and faded in and out to suit whatever the engineer and producer (and sometimes the artists) think their audience wants, from the speakers they have. "Concert hall realism" at least has an external standard . . .

[MSaturn]

Re: Flat Response

Well, it's nice to see the Lexicon dudes do their research, then. That curve conforms almost exactly to the 'tilt' function.

Interesting.

[r-carpenter]

Re: Flat Response

In AJ's world *his* "subjective" observations are "objective", and everyone else's are, well, groundless and lacking in "objective" confirmation. Funny, that . . .

Because you said so?
Or do you have scientifically verifiable/repeatble data to support this claim?
Can we see it now?
:D:D:D

[DDF]

Re: Flat Response

Look at the AVG responses of the above graphs:Dan

Dan, have you tried equing the response above 8kHz? Do you think that differences in the curves above this frequency may have some part to play in the perceived brightness? Personally I have never found >8kHz added harshness but it can add some tizz.

Thanks for the graphs.

[MSaturn]

Re: Flat Response

Also, I'm almost certain I will be using my treble control when I assemble my current project (so soon! ugh) - I designed it flat, with a horizontal null off-axis in the 3Khz-7Khz region that will likely be filled in by reflected sound, because they're full dipoles. Still, in my room, it'll probably be treble-heavy. We'll see ..

[Guest]

Re: Flat Response

Guys, I think y'all are getting your panties in a bunch and imagining disagreements where none exist. Can we all agree that, as a general rule of thumb, a good speaker/room combo will have:

Flat on-axis response (anechoic or quasi-anechoic)
Downward tilted in-room response
Smooth response curve on-axis
Smooth response curve in-room
Extended bass response

Now, if you don't have all of those, you may need to compromise one to make one or more of the others better. That's where you have to start using your ears.

Any questions now Dennis?

Deward bought the (measured) flat on axis source original Orion - which is now bright/harsh (this now applies to all "flat" speakers).
DDF thought the (measured) flat on axis source Salon2 sounded just - but now flat on axis sounds harsh/bright (this now applies to all "flat" speakers).

They were for it, before they were against it.
Got it? ;)

cheers,

AJ

[DDF]

Re: Flat Response

Any questions now Dennis?

Deward bought the (measured) flat on axis source original Orion - which is now bright/harsh (this now applies to all "flat" speakers).
DDF thought the (measured) flat on axis source Salon2 sounded just - but now flat on axis sounds harsh/bright (this now applies to all "flat" speakers).

They were for it, before they were against it.
Got it? ;)

cheers,

AJ

You misrepresented my position. What's your problem?

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Flat Response

Any questions now Dennis?

Deward bought the (measured) flat on axis source original Orion - which is now bright/harsh (this now applies to all "flat" speakers).
DDF thought the (measured) flat on axis source Salon2 sounded just - but now flat on axis sounds harsh/bright (this now applies to all "flat" speakers).

They were for it, before they were against it.
Got it? ;)

cheers,

AJ

You misrepresented my position. What's your problem?