Flat Response

[Zilch]

Re: Flat Response

I know zip about recording. Seems like there wasn't much post-processing, maybe.

I have found among visitors to ZilchLab that a surprising proportion have never experienced imaging, don't know what it is, and are somewhat amazed when confronted with a setup that actually does it.

[I do have a theory about that, tho.... ;) ]

[SpacePatrolman]

Re: Flat Response

For those that missed it, read John L. Murphy's post about recording style.

My thoughts agree closely with his......

If someone only listens to carefully-recorded albums put together by knowledgeable & caring engineers - and given permission to do that by the musicians themselves - a playback chain consisting of 100% flat components is a great thing.

Except that many, many recordings are NOT put together by knowledgeable engineers working with musicians that care about ultra-high quality sonics, and that pristine chain of flat components only serves to irritate the heck out of the music fan who listens to them.

Sure there's relatively more bad recordings now, but subpar recordings, particularly in the world of rock, hip-hop and pop music, has been the rule for *decades*. Steely Dan, Roxy Music and Dire Straits albums for example usually DO sound great but unfortunately they are one of the few - very few - exceptions....so personally speaking, I cannot choose my system based on such a small minority of recordings.

[dantheman]

Re: Flat Response

I think those recordings sound good on nearly everything.

Dan

[SpacePatrolman]

Re: Flat Response

Here's an example of an album I like a lot and listen to regularly, but it sure ain't because it's a wonder of high fidelity :(:

Go here to the Blue States website (a downtempo band headed by a man born in Greece but raised in the U.K.), mouse over to the full-track music player and listen to the track called "Arion".

Listen to the upper frequency spectrum, particularly the cymbals.

While the low-bitrate streaming method slightly softens those frequencies, trust me when I say that when the CD is played on any half-way decent system those frequencies sound harsh and many times the cymbals are actually distorted. Most of the album is similar to this, except "Your Girl" which sounds much smoother. Why? Because the female vocal sample used in it was pulled off of a 1960s Greek pop LP, which relatively speaking has a nice warm quality, so to prevent it from "sticking out" in the mix, the rest of the instrumentation was adjusted to match up with it i.e. the tinkly/bright recording style used with the other tracks was not used.

I'll admit this is an extreme example of what I posted about above, but wanted to make a point.

Btw this same method of "sonic matching" is used in particular with albums that use multiple samples, the Beastie Boys' Paul's Boutique and more recently, Beck's Guero.

[SpacePatrolman]

Re: Flat Response

I think those recordings sound good on nearly everything.

Dan

Well yes, I agree (if you're talking about Dire Straits, etc). But what I'm more concerned about is the not-so-good recordings, which make up the majority of the rock/pop genre that I personally listen to. See my newer post above.

[dantheman]

Re: Flat Response

Boy I hate to say this b/c you said the CD would sound harsh on a decent system. Though I certainly wouldn't describe that as hifi, it doesn't sound harsh here at all. Of course though the low bitrate just sort of does that. I have some pretty bad/harsh recordings that if you just turn them into low bitrate mp3, they loose the harsh and just sound bad.:eek: Clipping becomes a lot harder to distinguish as well.

Dan

[MSaturn]

Re: Flat Response

mp3s are the devil as far as I'm concerned. As far as music goes, it's like a beautiful woman wearing a mu-mu.

The most important parts of the human voice are the ones suffering from horrible compression. If you watch a spectrum analyzer on even a 192kbps mp3, you can see how much info is missing.

[Zilch]

Re: Flat Response

AR's lament was that classical music recordings of the time were "overly bright," and thus the burden of rolling them down fell upon the playback system if the listener's intent was to replicate concert hall realism. Their speakers were intentionally designed to accomplish this:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/original_models_1954-1974/original_models_manuals/ar-3a_ar-5_level_control_se/ar-3a_and_ar-5_level_contro.html

Their constant-directivity design objective is clearly stated in this 1968 document, though the term was not in common use at that time.

Since then, there have been many specialty labels claiming to have achieved more optimum spatial and spectral balance of classical music program via specialized recording, mixing, and mastering techniques. I have no clue whether or not they have been successful in these endeavors.

[Howard Ferstler would know, but it's unlikely he would respond to any inquiry from me.... ;) ]

[Dennis H]

Re: Flat Response

or most of Steely Dan's stuff

Roger Nichols rocks as a recording and mastering engineer!

http://www.rogernichols.com/

Check out the EQ mag articles. I really liked the one from 10 years ago where the pressing plant was adding jitter to his latest Steely Dan CD. Only someone of his stature would have been able to get the record company to have it pressed elsewhere.

Edit: oh and he uses Meyer Sound monitors when he's mixing.

[MSaturn]

Re: Flat Response

Wow, he's worked on like 10 of my favorite albums.

[Guest]

Re: Flat Response

Edit: oh and he uses Meyer Sound (HD-1) monitors when he's mixing.

:eek:

[dantheman]

Re: Flat Response

AJ, what's the lower line on there? I can't read it.

thanks,

Dan

[Guest]

Re: Flat Response

The "Deward" Curve :D

JK

30 deg off axis

[dantheman]

Re: Flat Response

Thanks AJ.

Check this out from one of an older monitor of theirs the HM-1S:

http://mixguides.com/studiomonitors/Reviews/meyer-sound-audio-798/

Even that old and still looks good with a coaxially mounted tweeter no less! I thought Genelec was the first on the block with getting that gig done right. OK, the new Genelec does graph better, but those look really good for being so old. I wish I would have thought of it before, but in my younger days I believed that studio monitors were bad. It seems so counter intuitive now. Best part is they are local boys for me, Zilch and Deward.

Dan

[Dennis H]

Re: Flat Response

Keep in mind that the mixing engineer is listening to the speakers about 3 feet away so the room is pretty much out of it. It gets more complicated in a living room.

That said, the good engineers listen to their tracks on all kinds of systems from studio monitors to PA to uber hifi to headphones to bose crap to their car -- and try to do the mix so it doesn't suck on any of them -- not easy! It's easy for us here in the peanut gallery to beat up on those guys but they have a tough job trying to make something that sounds good while they have record company execs yelling at them to make it louder so it will stand out on the radio.