Flat Response

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Flat Response

You even went so far as to say you didn't want to sit in the good seats b/c you think they might be too bright.

You're more than , you're flat out lying. In fact the only time I've even mentioned my "favorite seat" I said it was on stage directly behind the violas . . .

You seem to believe that the speaker needs to have very narrow beam width in the top octave and much wider beneath it(correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what I've gathered)

You're totally wrong, I've never said that, but there's (obviously) no point trying to "correct [you]" . . . you don't read what is written, and reply only to your own fictitious strawmen.

[Dennis H]

Re: Flat Response

Hi Dennis,

Ok, you got me....what are you implying with that link under my quote?

You jumped all over Deward for saying that flat in-room response (like measured from the seat with pink noise and an RTA) would sound too bright. Maybe you misunderstood him but here's what he said and I think he's been pretty consistent throughout.

No, actually the key is that as you move off axis the high frequency response falls, giving a (substantial) rolloff in power response (which combined with "flat on axis" still gives a drooping high end for the listener). "Flat" on-axis combined with "flat" off-axis (constant directivity) produces a speaker that is too bright and "forward" . . . one has to roll off the high end to produce an acceptably "natural" sound . . .

OTOH a perfect dipole in a concrete room would have exactly that flat power response that Harman researchers have found to sound too bright. However, Olive acknowledges that more research needs to be done with speakers with different directivity characteristics and implies that a dipole or a horn system might have a different 'preferred' in-room target slope than the .7-1 dB/oct that listeners liked with conventional speakers.

[Zilch]

Re: Flat Response

Independent of citation, also a significant distinction; if the context is acoustic concert hall, do we more desire/enjoy what the conductor hears, or the 15th row center presentation?

[Assuming we can rule out the cheap seats under the balcony as a primary design objective.... ]

[MSaturn]

Re: Flat Response

It's not our choice what we hear when listening to an orchestra. The microphones are never on the ground, like an audience member; we're 'sitting' wherever the set-up and engineers decide. Our goal should be to reproduce that accurately in our space.

[Guest]

Re: Flat Response

You jumped all over Deward for saying that flat in-room response (like measured from the seat with pink noise and an RTA) would sound too bright. Maybe you misunderstood him

You need to re-read the thread Dennis. Specifically post #1, #46 and #47, in that sequence.

yet it seems a flat response is an important design goal for many designers.

The OP opened the thread with "I would like your opinions on actual vs. perceived flat frequency response. Some say a flat response sounds to forward or even harsh . . ."

Which it does. A flat on-axis response combined with a flat power response will sound too forward, even harsh....

Because you said so?
Deward's subjective opinion is an unerring reflection of physical reality?
Or do you have scientifically verifiable/repeatable data to support this claim?
Can we see it now?

It's quite clear to me that the OP is referring to a flat acoustic source.
No where do I see "In room at listener position". In the OP's post or Dewards post that I replied to.
No where will you find me stating that "flat" (HF) at the listener position is desirable.

here's what he said and I think he's been pretty consistent throughout.

That's a response to Pete you quoted!
I had to go back and read it because I missed it/paid it no attention before. When did the thread go from the OP's statements about "flat" source by the designer to flat eq'd "at listener position"???
Deward also advocates a non-flat source fix for the Orion because flat source is too bright for his tastes(including his B2030p) and therefore everyone else as well.:(

cheers,

AJ

[dantheman]

Re: Flat Response

You're more than , you're flat out lying. In fact the only time I've even mentioned my "favorite seat" I said it was on stage directly behind the violas . . .


You're totally wrong, I've never said that, but there's (obviously) no point trying to "correct [you]" . . . you don't read what is written, and reply only to your own fictitious strawmen.

Well so much for holding off on the attack.:D I never said "favorite seat" either. Oy vey. What was that about straw man? Rhetorical. So your main speaker does not have a response you like--sorry I made the inference then and now. You just can't have it both ways. I thought you did like it. Perhaps it depends on the recording. Maybe you no longer like it? I asked you too correct me if I were wrong, but you refused to elaborate. So we are left to guess. Kind of like imagining what the original event sounded like. I hope you don't think your speakers are going to mimic the sound behind the violas--your "favorite seat".

Zilch, look at the AVG response from the horizontal polar graph:


Careful AJ, you're treading on eggshells. Deward gets upset when people mistake the B2030A for the B2030P. Well maybe that was just earlier in the week.:rolleyes:

Dan

[MSaturn]

Re: Flat Response

I'm going to build dipoles out of pine and poplar!

Maybe that will make people upset about something else.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Flat Response

I'm going to build dipoles out of pine and poplar!

Maybe that will make people upset about something else.

You're just pining to be popular.

[Guest]

Re: Flat Response

Careful AJ, you're treading on eggshells. Deward gets upset when people mistake the B2030A for the B2030P.

Sorry, you're right. Is the B2030A the one "flat" measured at the listener position?
That would be a rather remarkable design.
I'd like to know how to design a speaker that does that, regardless of the room, modes and distance, etc, etc. :D

cheers,

AJ

[MSaturn]

Re: Flat Response

Well, no, it's more that I want to experiment with wood-stiffening techniques.

Yes, that is what she said.

[Zilch]

Re: Flat Response

It's not our choice what we hear when listening to an orchestra. The microphones are never on the ground, like an audience member; we're 'sitting' wherever the set-up and engineers decide. Our goal should be to reproduce that accurately in our space.

Fine, but with a generous supplement of artificially enhanced spaciousness as some are advocating here? Listener EnVelopment (LEV) cannot be accomplished 2-channel in a typical listening room, only Apparent Source Width (ASW) enhancement, the stuff of direct/reflecting technology for 40 years.

Is the B2030A the one "flat" measured at the listener position? That would be a rather remarkable design. I'd like to know how to design a speaker that does that, regardless of the room, modes and distance, etc, etc. :D

Too late, my point! :p

It's NOT flat in-room, rather, downward-tilted, which Dan has just affirmed by showing a calculated power response plot....

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Flat Response

I never said "favorite seat"

True, your exact words were:

You even went so far as to say you didn't want to sit in the good seats b/c you think they might be too bright.

Also a lie.

So your main speaker does not have a response you like

And you know that how ? ? ?

Deward gets upset when people mistake the B2030A for the B2030P.

No, I just get annoyed at some idiot here who doesn't seem to understand the difference between the two (which include, significantly, switchable high and low frequency response compensation on the 2030A).

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Flat Response

Sorry, you're right. Is the B2030A the one "flat" measured at the listener position?
That would be a rather remarkable design.
I'd like to know how to design a speaker that does that, regardless of the room, modes and distance, etc, etc. :D

Well . . . buy a pair and learn. They have fr compensation switches on the back. Not completely adjustable for every possible room and position, but the hf rolloff goes a long way toward correcting the over-bright response of "flat" in a "live" room.

[Dennis H]

Re: Flat Response

Guys, I think y'all are getting your panties in a bunch and imagining disagreements where none exist. Can we all agree that, as a general rule of thumb, a good speaker/room combo will have:

Flat on-axis response (anechoic or quasi-anechoic)
Downward tilted in-room response
Smooth response curve on-axis
Smooth response curve in-room
Extended bass response

Now, if you don't have all of those, you may need to compromise one to make one or more of the others better. That's where you have to start using your ears.

[Zilch]

Re: Flat Response

No, I just get annoyed at some idiot here who doesn't seem to understand the difference between the two (which include, significantly, switchable high and low frequency response compensation on the 2030A).

Very desirable, perhaps, but the "P" version might reasonably be viewed as what engineering considered an optimum compromise for us cheapskates wanting to sit up front....

Can we all agree that, as a general rule of thumb, a good speaker/room combo will have:

Flat on-axis response (anechoic or quasi-anechoic)
Downward tilted in-room response
Smooth response curve on-axis
Smooth response curve in-room
Extended bass response

CHECK!

[But we can still fight about directivity, no...? ;) ]