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  • Bryan K.

    Midwest Audio Club

    Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

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    • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

      Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
      For this one we'll do it blind, switching back and forth between speakers via the balance control on the Marantz and with a mono signal. The listeners will not know which cap (brand) is loaded and which channel has the new or burned in cap.
      I thought you were aware of this issue! There are differences between drivers so that even if you had identical crossovers in both cabinets, listeners may be able to tell a difference. I though you were going to run a mono signal to a single speaker cabinet, and then switch between the the two caps.

      That's really the only way you'll be able to isolate any differences between the caps.

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      • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

        Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
        Spent some time terminating cables to hook the now crossover-less Monitor-40's to their new external crossovers.
        Are these cables new, or have they been burned in? Some people claim that there's a difference.

        Just kidding.

        But seriously, I do have a document, given to me by a speaker wire salesman way back in 1994, claiming that speaker wire has a "direction" to it. One is advised to connect the speakers to the amplifier and listen, then switch the speaker wire end for end and listen again. One way will sound better and that's the way it should be connected. This is caused by the way the wire is drawn at the factory. You want the signal to travel along the wire in the direction that it was drawn (or maybe it's the other way around) to get the best sound out of it.

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        • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

          Originally posted by Herman Trivilino View Post
          I thought you were aware of this issue! There are differences between drivers so that even if you had identical crossovers in both cabinets, listeners may be able to tell a difference. I though you were going to run a mono signal to a single speaker cabinet, and then switch between the the two caps.

          That's really the only way you'll be able to isolate any differences between the caps.
          Or downmix both channels to mono so the same information is playing from both channels, see if you can distinguish any differences in tonality from either speaker.

          Also, play both speakers in stereo, with one set of caps, then another, to distinguish any differences in spacial information(imaging, soundstage, etc...). But you may need different speaker placement than pictured above for a good evaluation.
          "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

          http://www.diy-ny.com/

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          • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

            Originally posted by Herman Trivilino View Post
            I thought you were aware of this issue! There are differences between drivers so that even if you had identical crossovers in both cabinets, listeners may be able to tell a difference. I though you were going to run a mono signal to a single speaker cabinet, and then switch between the the two caps.

            That's really the only way you'll be able to isolate any differences between the caps.
            Good point (again) ;) Guess I'm going to Rat Shack tomorrow for a big a$$ double throw switch for this first round of tests....no problem.

            I hope Wolf repeats the cap test at InDIYana 2011. I need to see his test rig. This crap requires a lot more planning than I ever anticipated. Definitely not noob territory :(
            Bryan K.

            Midwest Audio Club

            Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

            Comment


            • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

              Originally posted by Herman Trivilino View Post
              Are these cables new, or have they been burned in? Some people claim that there's a difference.

              I'm very aware of that whole debate, seriously. These cables are well broken in....been used for over a year. I just cut them down and reterminated them for the new set-up (external XO's).

              I guess I can flip around the cables to see if I notice any difference in sound (directionality), but with only a couple feet in length, I hardly suspect there will be any difference. I will try it though or actually, I will get my son to flip them while I'm not looking (better)?? -- the banana plugs make that a snap.
              Bryan K.

              Midwest Audio Club

              Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

              Comment


              • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                Originally posted by Face View Post
                Or downmix both channels to mono so the same information is playing from both channels, see if you can distinguish any differences in tonality from either speaker.

                Also, play both speakers in stereo, with one set of caps, then another, to distinguish any differences in spacial information(imaging, soundstage, etc...). But you may need different speaker placement than pictured above for a good evaluation.
                Herman is right. For the purposes of distinguishing whether there's a difference between a cooked cap and a brand new cap, one speaker should be used. This is the test I want to get done this week. So I will use a switching mech between the high-pass caps for this.

                However, once I cook the remaining caps and do the brand comparison, I will definitely want a stereo signal and a pair of speakers. I can definitely reposition the speakers for that test. :D
                Bryan K.

                Midwest Audio Club

                Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

                Comment


                • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                  Originally posted by Face View Post
                  Or downmix both channels to mono so the same information is playing from both channels, see if you can distinguish any differences in tonality from either speaker.
                  That's what he is doing. The problem, though, is that the two speakers have different drivers AND different caps. No way to tell if the differences peaople hear are due to the differences in the drivers or what he's testing for (differences in the caps).

                  Unless I'm misunderstanding you?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                    Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
                    Not to be nitpicky, but the graph is labeled the other way -- red along the length of the cap and blue at the lead wire.

                    In my stethoscope measurements I definitely noticed more noise coming from around the center of the cap - between the lead wires.
                    Thanks for the catch. I did a re-test today and confirmed the chart title is correct. I must have been at a low point in my bio-rythm when I created that post. Thus, I have corrected the accompanying text. Don't know why my results (end vs center) would be the opposite of yours. Perhaps the cap's makup?
                    I also measured a similar pattern with a pricy Hovland 4.7 uF 100V cap

                    These are very low level sounds eminating from these caps. The question is what, if any, impact this phenomenon has on a loudspeaker?. Furthermore, is this 'singing' phenomenon the same as what CC measured and addressed with their MR caps?
                    Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

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                    • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                      Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                      Don't know why my results (end vs center) would be the opposite of yours. Perhaps the cap's makup?
                      Well, I used a stethoscope first of all, and a not-so-great one at that. I'm going to have another listen, this time with the cap sitting in the full crossover. I will try the Clarity again and then the Jantzen Super Z (which I didn't try the first time).

                      You'd be proud of me -- I ordered a calibrated Behringer ECM8000 from Cross-Spectrum Labs. :D

                      Since I'm really getting into this hobby, I realize the need to equip myself with some real tools. This should also come in very handy with car stereo installs as well. I might be twisting your ear a bit in the near future for some measuring and analysis pointers.
                      Bryan K.

                      Midwest Audio Club

                      Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

                      Comment


                      • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                        A better test signal might show a bigger difference even though that isn't a greatly compressed mp3, uncompressed files always sound better through my home systems. A better signal may expose a difference more easily if you are looking to go beyond fun...

                        How is the switching to be done and how many trials are their to be?

                        Dan
                        "guitar polygamy is a satisfying and socially acceptable alternative lifestyle."~Tony Woolley
                        http://dtmblabber.blogspot.com/
                        http://soundcloud.com/dantheman-10

                        Comment


                        • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                          Originally posted by dantheman View Post
                          A better test signal might show a bigger difference even though that isn't a greatly compressed mp3, uncompressed files always sound better through my home systems. A better signal may expose a difference more easily if you are looking to go beyond fun...

                          How is the switching to be done and how many trials are their to be?

                          Dan
                          Bryan K.

                          Midwest Audio Club

                          Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

                          Comment


                          • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                            I do think a better file will make subtle differences more noticeable as well as a higher testing volume than what you would normally listen at.;)

                            BTW, you'll get no flames from me if that's what you are worried about. If you feel like you have already you are wrong(and this is not a flame either). I'll apologize if that's the case. I most certainly would try to help you if I just intended to knock you for trying. I tried to help Wolf's test as well though he seemed to think I was flaming him. Never did. I will admit I find the 'click' hearers pretty far out there--can't help it and I feel it's just responsible to say something to get the youngsters to think before they blow their wads on pricey caps.

                            Your son intends to pseudo randomize I suppose?

                            Do you think your results will be different than Wolf's? If so, why?

                            Thanks,

                            Dan
                            "guitar polygamy is a satisfying and socially acceptable alternative lifestyle."~Tony Woolley
                            http://dtmblabber.blogspot.com/
                            http://soundcloud.com/dantheman-10

                            Comment


                            • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                              Originally posted by dantheman View Post
                              I do think a better file will make subtle differences more noticeable as well as a higher testing volume than what you would normally listen at.;)
                              Gotcha.

                              Originally posted by dantheman View Post
                              BTW, you'll get no flames from me if that's what you are worried about. If you feel like you have already you are wrong(and this is not a flame either). I'll apologize if that's the case.
                              NO NO NO....sorry I didn't mean you at all....just in general. Forums can be very cold at times.

                              Originally posted by dantheman View Post
                              Your son intends to pseudo randomize I suppose?
                              Yes, the engineer will exchange caps and flip switches and keep notes without any of the listeners able to see what he's doing. Very easy to accomplish with the external XO's -- I'm very happy I did it that way. I would not go thru the trouble of cracking open the speaker to swap out caps for something like this.

                              Originally posted by dantheman View Post
                              Do you think your results will be different than Wolf's? If so, why?
                              Wolf's caps were compared to different caps in his test (right?). I do plan to do that as well in a couple weeks. I'm just putting cooked caps up against unused caps of the same brand/measured value.
                              Bryan K.

                              Midwest Audio Club

                              Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

                              Comment


                              • Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                                Please don't use low res files.
                                "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                                http://www.diy-ny.com/

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