Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Testing begins tomorrow hopefully.

First test - Listen to the brand new (not broken in caps) against the Jantzen Superior Z cap. I am used to the sound of the Jantzens, so this is just for my edification.

Second test - Listen to the brand new (not broken in caps) against their cooked siblings. For this one we'll do it blind, switching back and forth between speakers via the balance control on the Marantz and with a mono signal. The listeners will not know which cap (brand) is loaded and which channel has the new or burned in cap. The objective is to see if anyone notices differences between a burned in cap and a new cap (of the exact same measurement and same brand). All the caps are exact matched pairs.

If it matters to anyone, I will be using 320kbps MP3’s thru an Asus Xonar Essence STX, into the Marantz 2235B. The Marantz was recapped, so it’s a solid performer and it has a handy MONO button and slider-type balance control that will make things easier for the test engineer (my son).

Thoughts/Comments before we get started?

[Herman Trivilino]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

For this one we'll do it blind, switching back and forth between speakers via the balance control on the Marantz and with a mono signal. The listeners will not know which cap (brand) is loaded and which channel has the new or burned in cap.

I thought you were aware of this issue! There are differences between drivers so that even if you had identical crossovers in both cabinets, listeners may be able to tell a difference. I though you were going to run a mono signal to a single speaker cabinet, and then switch between the the two caps.

That's really the only way you'll be able to isolate any differences between the caps.

[Herman Trivilino]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Spent some time terminating cables to hook the now crossover-less Monitor-40's to their new external crossovers.

Are these cables new, or have they been burned in? Some people claim that there's a difference.

Just kidding.

But seriously, I do have a document, given to me by a speaker wire salesman way back in 1994, claiming that speaker wire has a "direction" to it. One is advised to connect the speakers to the amplifier and listen, then switch the speaker wire end for end and listen again. One way will sound better and that's the way it should be connected. This is caused by the way the wire is drawn at the factory. You want the signal to travel along the wire in the direction that it was drawn (or maybe it's the other way around) to get the best sound out of it.

[Face]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I thought you were aware of this issue! There are differences between drivers so that even if you had identical crossovers in both cabinets, listeners may be able to tell a difference. I though you were going to run a mono signal to a single speaker cabinet, and then switch between the the two caps.

That's really the only way you'll be able to isolate any differences between the caps.

Or downmix both channels to mono so the same information is playing from both channels, see if you can distinguish any differences in tonality from either speaker.

Also, play both speakers in stereo, with one set of caps, then another, to distinguish any differences in spacial information(imaging, soundstage, etc...). But you may need different speaker placement than pictured above for a good evaluation.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I thought you were aware of this issue! There are differences between drivers so that even if you had identical crossovers in both cabinets, listeners may be able to tell a difference. I though you were going to run a mono signal to a single speaker cabinet, and then switch between the the two caps.

That's really the only way you'll be able to isolate any differences between the caps.

Good point (again) ;) Guess I'm going to Rat Shack tomorrow for a big a$$ double throw switch for this first round of tests....no problem.

I hope Wolf repeats the cap test at InDIYana 2011. I need to see his test rig. This crap requires a lot more planning than I ever anticipated. Definitely not noob territory :(

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Are these cables new, or have they been burned in? Some people claim that there's a difference.

I'm very aware of that whole debate, seriously. These cables are well broken in....been used for over a year. I just cut them down and reterminated them for the new set-up (external XO's).

I guess I can flip around the cables to see if I notice any difference in sound (directionality), but with only a couple feet in length, I hardly suspect there will be any difference. I will try it though or actually, I will get my son to flip them while I'm not looking (better)?? -- the banana plugs make that a snap.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Or downmix both channels to mono so the same information is playing from both channels, see if you can distinguish any differences in tonality from either speaker.

Also, play both speakers in stereo, with one set of caps, then another, to distinguish any differences in spacial information(imaging, soundstage, etc...). But you may need different speaker placement than pictured above for a good evaluation.

Herman is right. For the purposes of distinguishing whether there's a difference between a cooked cap and a brand new cap, one speaker should be used. This is the test I want to get done this week. So I will use a switching mech between the high-pass caps for this.

However, once I cook the remaining caps and do the brand comparison, I will definitely want a stereo signal and a pair of speakers. I can definitely reposition the speakers for that test. :D

[Herman Trivilino]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Or downmix both channels to mono so the same information is playing from both channels, see if you can distinguish any differences in tonality from either speaker.

That's what he is doing. The problem, though, is that the two speakers have different drivers AND different caps. No way to tell if the differences peaople hear are due to the differences in the drivers or what he's testing for (differences in the caps).

Unless I'm misunderstanding you?

[carlspeak]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Not to be nitpicky, but the graph is labeled the other way -- red along the length of the cap and blue at the lead wire.

In my stethoscope measurements I definitely noticed more noise coming from around the center of the cap - between the lead wires.

Thanks for the catch. I did a re-test today and confirmed the chart title is correct. I must have been at a low point in my bio-rythm when I created that post. Thus, I have corrected the accompanying text. Don't know why my results (end vs center) would be the opposite of yours. Perhaps the cap's makup?
I also measured a similar pattern with a pricy Hovland 4.7 uF 100V cap

These are very low level sounds eminating from these caps. The question is what, if any, impact this phenomenon has on a loudspeaker?. Furthermore, is this 'singing' phenomenon the same as what CC measured and addressed with their MR caps?

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Don't know why my results (end vs center) would be the opposite of yours. Perhaps the cap's makup?

Well, I used a stethoscope first of all, and a not-so-great one at that. I'm going to have another listen, this time with the cap sitting in the full crossover. I will try the Clarity again and then the Jantzen Super Z (which I didn't try the first time).

You'd be proud of me -- I ordered a calibrated Behringer ECM8000 from Cross-Spectrum Labs. :D

Since I'm really getting into this hobby, I realize the need to equip myself with some real tools. This should also come in very handy with car stereo installs as well. I might be twisting your ear a bit in the near future for some measuring and analysis pointers.

[dantheman]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

A better test signal might show a bigger difference even though that isn't a greatly compressed mp3, uncompressed files always sound better through my home systems. A better signal may expose a difference more easily if you are looking to go beyond fun...

How is the switching to be done and how many trials are their to be?

Dan

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

A better test signal might show a bigger difference even though that isn't a greatly compressed mp3, uncompressed files always sound better through my home systems. A better signal may expose a difference more easily if you are looking to go beyond fun...

How is the switching to be done and how many trials are their to be?

Dan

I did think about that, but I surely don't want to spark an argument over FLAC vs. 320kbps or 96/24 vs. 44.1/16 although Media Monkey + my Xonar Essence STX can handle all of the above.

For the initial testing where we’re trying to identify a difference in sound from the new vs. burned in caps, I don’t think MP3’s are going to be a problem at all. We’re going to start out that way and take it from there. I can do CD’s, DVD’s, and/or high resolution music, and I WILL go there if we judge immediately that there’s no difference between the new and burned caps.

I’m going to make a DPDT switch box so we can flip back and forth easily between the caps. I will be feeding a MONO signal into one Polk Monitor-40. Three people will be involved and I was thinking of doing maybe 3 songs on each cap – so three trials per cap per person. Admittedly I am new to this whole idea of DB and ABX testing, so I welcome your comments. I’m in no rush to make hasty decision so I can put all my equipment back where it belongs and be done with the thread. I do want to get some sort of education (sans being flamed) out of this whole experience.

[dantheman]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I do think a better file will make subtle differences more noticeable as well as a higher testing volume than what you would normally listen at.;)

BTW, you'll get no flames from me if that's what you are worried about. If you feel like you have already you are wrong(and this is not a flame either). I'll apologize if that's the case. I most certainly would try to help you if I just intended to knock you for trying. I tried to help Wolf's test as well though he seemed to think I was flaming him. Never did. I will admit I find the 'click' hearers pretty far out there--can't help it and I feel it's just responsible to say something to get the youngsters to think before they blow their wads on pricey caps.

Your son intends to pseudo randomize I suppose?

Do you think your results will be different than Wolf's? If so, why?

Thanks,

Dan

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I do think a better file will make subtle differences more noticeable as well as a higher testing volume than what you would normally listen at.;)

Gotcha.

BTW, you'll get no flames from me if that's what you are worried about. If you feel like you have already you are wrong(and this is not a flame either). I'll apologize if that's the case.

NO NO NO....sorry I didn't mean you at all....just in general. Forums can be very cold at times.

Your son intends to pseudo randomize I suppose?

Yes, the engineer will exchange caps and flip switches and keep notes without any of the listeners able to see what he's doing. Very easy to accomplish with the external XO's -- I'm very happy I did it that way. I would not go thru the trouble of cracking open the speaker to swap out caps for something like this.

Do you think your results will be different than Wolf's? If so, why?

Wolf's caps were compared to different caps in his test (right?). I do plan to do that as well in a couple weeks. I'm just putting cooked caps up against unused caps of the same brand/measured value.

[Face]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Please don't use low res files.