Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[dantheman]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Wolf's caps were compared to different caps in his test (right?). I do plan to do that as well in a couple weeks. I'm just putting cooked caps up against unused caps of the same brand/measured value.

Oh, I thought you were going to do both--and you are in the future it seems. I just wasn't making the distinction of 2 different tests.

So your hypothesis could be that burning in caps might make a bigger difference than changing cap manufacturers or that your test method could be better at revealing a difference. It's cool that these will be done in an environment and through a speaker that you are familiar with. That eliminates some of the complaints people had about wolf's tests that resulted in no statistical difference between the brands. You should have a better chance I'd think of getting a difference.

Cool that you are gathering more data.

Dan

[Bruce Gerard Co.]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Hi all - I don't want to put anyone off on my very 1st post here, but here goes. The notion of "burning in" capacitors, resistors, wire, etc. was started decades ago by "tone snobs" who wanted to make a name for themselves. It is utter hogwash, and I'm amazed at how seemingly "bright" people are completely bought into this sham. Frankly, I have a lot of envy for the companies that make a lot of profit selling snake oil.

I've been in the pro audio business for over 20 years, and this argument has been around longer than that. Capacitors can and do go out of "form" when they are not energized for long periods of time. A healthy capacitor will form in mere seconds, or even less, when the correct working voltage is applied across it. This is mainly a concern for high voltage applications only, (250 volts and above) that provide filtering in power supplies. A capacitor in a crossover either works correctly, or it doesn't. Speaker cable either works correctly or it doesn't. The electrons don't need to get "used" to the component. The electrons don't need to be told which way to "go" through a speaker cable or wire. Does the direction of the wire matter? Well-ask yourself this: Which direction does AC flow? What signal flows through your speaker cable and caps? It better be AC, 'cause if you get any DC in there - your speakers and amp are history.

10 years ago, I participated in double blind tests of speaker wire - I couldn't tell the difference between $20,000 speaker cable and 10ga zipcord. Apparently, nobody else (nor the electrons) could tell either. As other people here have noted - people will hear what they want to hear. They will also only believe what thery want to believe.

There is even a website guru selling hand turned wooden knobs for the volume control of a high-end "tone snob" single-ended amp. The knob has been laquered with a special "dampening laquer" to help improve the "resolution" of the amplifier. I'm not joking. A wood knob. It sells for hundreds of dollars. People are actually that gullible, unfortunately.

[Wushuliu]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Nice. Guy signs up JUST to trash an amazingly civil thread. Never fails. Never.

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Except that a brand-test difference would hinge on his not being identical in value. Mine were the same.

It was not that the speakers were unfamiliar to the listeners either, Dan. I laid out the tracks ahead of time, and stated the plans in a lot of other various ways. There will always be believers and nay-sayers, period.

There will probably never be consistent statistical analysis of ABX tests to favor one over another or be able to tell the difference. That's how the test works. You have some who can't tell, some who can tell, and some who are clueless. You also have the people who think they hear a difference and those who think they don't.

It's just not possible in this manner to do a test and get the results favoring one direction over the other; for a large majority of people.


Later,
Wolf

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

10 years ago, I participated in double blind tests of speaker wire - I couldn't tell the difference between $20,000 speaker cable and 10ga zipcord.

I could tell a difference between the $500 Kimbers and Dayton High-Definition Speaker Cable. Just ask those that were present at Dayton DIY 2003.

What you don't know or experience will obviously not sway you in your judgements. My experiences say otherwise.

Later,
Wolf

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Hi all - I don't want to put anyone off on my very 1st post here, but here goes. The notion of "burning in" capacitors, resistors, wire, etc. was started decades ago by "tone snobs" who wanted to make a name for themselves. It is utter hogwash.....

There are people in BOTH camps which is fine. I am in NEITHER camp at the moment, which is the reason for my simple tests. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and welcome to chime in to see the outcomes here.

On the topic of esoteric accessories -- I don't buy the claims either, but I don't really "skimp" on things like interconnects, speaker cable, crossover components -- I'd put myself in the lower middle class when it comes to that stuff.....I don't buy crap, but I don't buck up for ridiculously expensive stuff either, and I'm happy with what I have. I think everyone needs to make a conscious decision as to what is right for them and their setup and their listening tastes -- there's so many factors that come in to play, but whatever - we're not debating that on this thread.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Except that a brand-test difference would hinge on his not being identical in value. Mine were the same.

CLARITY - 8.4uF
DAYTON - 8.3uF
JANTZEN - 8.3uF
SONICAP - 8.2uF

Wolf,

These are the measured values of the caps I'm ultimately going to test against each other. As you can see, they are not identical despite their 8.2uF advertized rating. There's only a 2.5% difference between the SONICAP and the CLARITY (they have the largest variance). Effectively, the crossover point shift would be 58hz between those two.

It was suggested that I bring them all up to the exact same value, with a cheapo bypass cap, but I wouldn't want to parallel any of these with anything other than the same brand.

For the purposes of testing these brands against each other, is that 2.5% tolerance acceptable? I'm sure I will get differing opinions on this, but I hardly think that a 58Hz shift in a crossover point is going to be audible.

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Yes- I read that before. Unless they match or are within a 1% or less (preferably equal) tolerance, and you attribute the net ESR on all of the caps and compensate those to be equal with utilized resistors; as well as keep the switcher out of view and make it a no-noise applied switch to verify a quiet environment without unconsienable visual cues that you could possibly be showed from your brother, et al....

You will be told you have not been totally accurate and the test results will not hold any water in the end, regardless whether or not you did it for fun and a learning exercise or not.

Trust me- that's what I was told. I'm not trying to be a downer, but this is the case amoung the skeptics.

Personally- I can hear differences in fractions of an ohm, half a uF, and less than half of a mH; when I'm voicing projects. You'd really be surprised.

Later,
Wolf

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Personally- I can hear differences in fractions of an ohm, half a uF, and less than half of a mH; when I'm voicing projects. You'd really be surprised.

Later,
Wolf

Bro, you have some f***ing great ears.

Guess I'm going back to the drawing board, at least for the brand comparison test.

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I'm telling you- it isn't that hard really. If you have 2 different values, you can reference one to the other. It's easier than you think!

Sometimes, a half-ohm is all it takes to lock the tweeter level down. That's easy to hear.

You can tell a change in value in caps (for certain- high pass series position only), it changes the tonality. I doubt a shunt change of 1uF would be very audible, depending on the range affected. In the current build, I used a bypass cap on the series resistor to 'lift' the top-end. 2.5uF made it harsh, 2.0uF was still too much, and 1.0uF dialed it in nicely.

In the woofer LP, a 0.25mH can change the response a lot!!! I went from a 1.5mH to 1.2mH to listen, and they (current build) became shouty, but 1.56mH (measured) was too much rolloff. I unwound to a measured 1.5mH as simulated, and it filled in what was muted in the midrange.

I'm not saying you shouldn't proceed with your evaluations. It's a learning experience for sure. I am saying that very few will take your experiences to heart on this unless all of their criteria for testing is met.

Proceed, grasshopper!
Have fun,
Wolf

[Wushuliu]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

You will be told you have not been totally accurate and the test results will not hold any water in the end, regardless whether or not you did it for fun and a learning exercise or not.

Provided he discerns any differences. If he does not, he will be lauded for his thoroughness and noble obduracy to the delusions of mind and ears.

[dantheman]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

----snip------

It was not that the speakers were unfamiliar to the listeners either, Dan. I laid out the tracks ahead of time, and stated the plans in a lot of other various ways. There will always be believers and nay-sayers, period.
(((snip)))

Later,
Wolf

your retort is incongruent Wolf. Had those caps clicked yet? All of them? So yes, there will always be believers and non-believers--you don't believe your own test.

If you want a positive test, just let them know what they are listening to next time.;) People do this all the time to 'prove' their position.

No need to answer those questions. They are rhetorical.

Dan

[jcandy]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I'm telling you- it isn't that hard really. If you have 2 different values, you can reference one to the other. It's easier than you think!

Sometimes, a half-ohm is all it takes to lock the tweeter level down. That's easy to hear.

You can tell a change in value in caps (for certain- high pass series position only), it changes the tonality. I doubt a shunt change of 1uF would be very audible, depending on the range affected. In the current build, I used a bypass cap on the series resistor to 'lift' the top-end. 2.5uF made it harsh, 2.0uF was still too much, and 1.0uF dialed it in nicely.

The component value changes you mention above are entirely consistent with changes in the electrical transfer function which are easily measurable with even entry-level mic-and-soundcard equipment. In fact, entry-level equipment is generally good enough to measure changes that are below or well-below the limit of audibility (for example adding 0.25 Ohms to a series padding or shunt resistor), or a 20 foot run of 18 gauge versus 14 gauge wire.

To repeat what's been emphasized already, when comparing two capacitors in a crossover circuit, there will almost always be measurable differences between two capacitors because of the different actual capacitance (say 9.2uF versus 8.8uF in two capacitors nominally rated at 9uF). If the difference is minimized (say to less than 0.1uF variation) then assuming ideal function of the capacitor, the measurable difference will be tiny and the audible difference effectively zero. That is how we can explain decades of cable and capacitor scrutiny without the emergence of a true golden-ears who is able to tell the difference (when controlled for L/C/R variation) at a rate better than random.

However, there is a significant and evidently very wealthy audio subculture that purports to be able to hear the differences between a Sonicap and a Solen and a Mundorf no matter how tight the tolerance. They too make the even bolder claim that they can tell with complete certainly that the Solen is harsh and metallic while the Sonicap is smooth and accurate. This kind of testimony flies in the face of electronics, and is really more in the realm of psychology than acoustics/electronics. There is a semi-technical faction of this subculture that makes some effort to find scientific support for the superiority of boutique capacitors by name-dropping things like ESR, dissipation factor (basically the same thing), and mechanical resonance. What measurements show is that for audio-grade MPP capacitors, the ESR is so ridiculously low that its not possible to measure with entry-level equipment (say, Soundeasy plus PCI soundcard) because of effects like jig inductance and resistance that cannot be calibrated out of the measurement system.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Provided he discerns any differences. If he does not, he will be lauded for his thoroughness and noble obduracy to the delusions of mind and ears.

....and if I do notice a difference? Just sayin...

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[QUOTE=jcandy;1730727]...effects like jig inductance and resistance [QUOTE]

I was actually thinking about this, but of course have no way of knowing if it will be a factor in my tests. Will the extra connections and switches in the path of the high-pass caps degrade the signal to a point that it may blur subtle nuances in the program material that would otherwise allow a listener to distinguish one cap from another??

For example, I'm planning to use one DPDT switch to flip back and forth between two caps for the burn-in test. Seems acceptible to me, with the goal strictly to determine if there's an audible difference between a cooked cap and new cap (same brand - same measured value).

However, for the more important and hotly debated brand vs. brand test, I was thinking of using a 4PDT switch which will allow me to switch back and forth between two pairs of caps -- enabling a full stereo signal to be scrutinized. One like this ---> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=060-572



Are the switches and extra connections going to completely f*** this up?