Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Even then- the caps' discharge/charge function will introduce a perceivable pop everytime they are connected.
It won't matter on a make-before-break switch even. It will still pop. However- with the MBB switch, you won't have a drop ot of sound even if the xover changes for a split second.

Later,
Wolf

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

What researchers do is show that there is, on average, a greater than 95% chance that the demonstrated preference is not due to chance alone.

(In statistics jargon this is known as setting the alpha level to 5% so that the confidence level is 95%).

I'm not claiming that this can or cannot be done in the case you're talking about. Perhaps if your sample was not random, but instead consisted of people who have claimed that they can tell the difference? For me, at least, that would be more meaningful..

I could do that in the future. Seems plausible.
Later,
Wolf

[dantheman]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Rhetorical or not, my test proved to me there is a difference.
Wasn't really funny, Dan, but nice try. :rolleyes:
Later,
Wolf

It was intended to be sad, :( not funny. Glad your not working on something that matters.

Dan

[Herman Trivilino]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

If both the tester (in this case the switcher) and the testee don't know what's being tested or when in this particular DBT scenario, how is a record kept of what was tested when?

A third party will simply label them "A" and "B" and will make a note of which is which. For example, A is the cooked cap, B is not cooked. He should use a random method of determining, such as flipping a coin and assigning the cooked cap to A if heads, B if tails. All of this should be done in a separate room. This third party will not otherwise be involved in the testing, and his communication should be only with the person who does the switching. And of course, great care must be taken to make sure the switcher has no knowledge of which cap is which, whether they are labeled the same or differently from the way they were labeled in the previous test, etc.

The process will have to be repeated several times to see if the participants are just getting lucky, or are actually telling the difference. For example, if they say the cooked cap sounds better than the uncooked, and can do it 9 times out 10, we'd be confident in that person's ability to hear the difference between the cooked cap and the uncooked cap.

This could then lead to some further investigations. What if, out of the three testers, only two can reliably tell the difference. But, of those two, one claims the cooked sounds better and the other claims the uncooked sounds better!

Regardless of what you do, however, you will always have some people claiming the test is flawed, and others claiming it's not. This is a fact of scientific life. However, just because they disagree doesn't mean that one is somehow a better human being than the other. This is a fact of life. People can disagree without deriding each other.

My favorite example is the persistance of the viewpoint that matter is made up of a continuous medium, such as a fluid. We now "know" and are taught as school children that matter is made of atoms. However, the best scientific minds weren't in agreement about this up until as recently as 100 years ago. The last vestige of the debate, when only a few octegenarians remained unconvinced, was that matter only behaved "as if" it were made of atoms.

The same thing will probably happen here until crossover capacitors become obsolete. Nevertheless, it's meaningful to continue to observe and investigate. bkeane is doing this, and shouldn't be derided for attempting to either confirm or deny what some other person might already believe.

[DoubleTap]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I've been watching this thread for awhile, following the ups and downs ... but have resisted posting because I really have no interest disagreements. I know what I know, and am just fine with that.

But, what I've been wanting to say is that listening for differences in caps is a skill among itself. Small cap value differences are insignificant in that type of listening, because tonality isn't what you're listening for. Voicing is when I apply that type of listening, that's when you focus on tone and amplitude of instruments and vocals. But when listening to cap differences, I focus on the imaging cues. Grit for instance is easily heard in close mic'd dynamic female vocals, Norah Jones is a perfect example. If a cap has what's typically described as grit, her vocal image will become unstable - it will move forward and back in space along with her dynamic range. A good cap and even Norah Jones' voice will remain rock solid in place. You also listen to the edges, how far out was that triangle, how far back is the Cello, do things seem to come from outside the edges of the speakers and do they wrap around the room. If so, you make mental notes of exactly where the notes come from at very specific points in a recording ... and when swapping caps compare the image localization for those specific points.

I also find it helps to listen with eyes closed when doing cap comparisons. That makes the job of focusing on space easier, since the picture of space is wholly created by your ears/brain at that point instead of being 'polluted' by data from your eyes as well.

A recent Cirrus build I shipped out that used Clarity MR's for full values in the crossover made these types of differences readily apparent. The soundstage grew significantly in every dimension, the wrap-around 3D effect happened numerous times on even average recordings, and every instrument was rock solid in it's spatial placement.

Developing the skill of how to listen is what will make or break this experiement for you. Keep the outside stimuli to a minimum so that you can truly focus on what you're listening for. Simply getting up to flip a switch will really hamper your ability to do that, so get a helper for making changes. When listening just sit in one spot and think about nothing but what I said, have your helper make changes, and then start your playlist over again.

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Glad your not working on something that matters.

Dan

Sorry, but what is that inferring? That I didn't conduct my test as others wanted? Oh well, no sweat off of my back...

You can see how your statement can be taken as ambiguous now can't you?
You have been stating things without much defining and clarification, so please be more succinct.

Later,
Wolf

[jcandy]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

A recent Cirrus build I shipped out that used Clarity MR's for full values in the crossover made these types of differences readily apparent. The soundstage grew significantly in every dimension, the wrap-around 3D effect happened numerous times on even average recordings, and every instrument was rock solid in it's spatial placement.

Do you have any thoughts about what electrical property of the crossover is changing when you swap two caps?

Although my reasoning may be misguided, I would think an audible change in the "soundstage" would require a measureable change in the power response (which one could assay by measuring the SPL/phase at +30/+15/0/-15/-30). At the same time, I don't see how swapping capacitors with nearly identical electrical properties could modify the power response.

Ideas?

[carlspeak]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Something I did recently was try a Northcreek Crescendo cap 1.0uF 630V in parallel with the Clarity SA on my Usher 9845 mid dome in my Attitudes just for fun. 5 minutes in they 'clicked'/formed, and they got very fizzily-crappy sounding. This was VERY audible. I tried other 1uF caps I also have of the 'uber quality type', and they did not have this problem. I did not think it would be that noticable, being 5% of the 20uF SA. Also adding 1uF to a 20uF should not excite the dome to be ill or nasty sounding.

I honestly thought it maybe was a damaged cap, since it was second-hand, but I enlisted the Crescendo on the bypass for the BeCu TB tweeter's pad resistor, and it was not as characterized before. It sounds lots better on these.

Later,
Wolf

If you have a WT2, it would be interesting to run an arbscan on a pre-clicked and post-clicked cap. If you don't, send me a pair and I'll gladly run the test. You can even not tell me which is which so we have at least a blind test.

I'd do all this myself, but I have yet to experience the clicking phenomenon.

[LSV8]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Gotcha. I ordered the PE 4PDT switch, without knowing if it will satisfy my needs. I guess we'll just have to see, when it arrives.

I have to use this type of switch for the brand vs. brand cap test in order to flip between the caps with a stereo signal (but correct me if I'm wrong).

Nope, you're right. That switch still falls into a xPDT category. For the sake of my post, I just called it a DT switch... where a SPDT, DPDT, or 1000PDT switch would have applied. :p My main point was the "make before break" type of xPDT switches. Which, as Wolf points out here, still has a slight caveat:

Even then- the caps' discharge/charge function will introduce a perceivable pop everytime they are connected.
It won't matter on a make-before-break switch even. It will still pop. However- with the MBB switch, you won't have a drop ot of sound even if the xover changes for a split second.

Good point, Wolf. I was thinking that "might" be an issue... but was not sure enough to make mention having never tried it before. Is it terrbily noticable? I suppose it would be cap value/listening level dependent...

For the first phase of your test (listening to a single speaker) you could use the type of single pole, double throw (SPDT) switch used on a guitar. I bought bought one at a music supply store. When placed in the center position, both devices are "on" as opposed to the typical SPDT switch that doesn't even have a center position.

I mentioned this exactly in post #234. (No one reads my posts! :( ... kidding, kidding.)
Though I should also point out that you could use a 5-way switch as well (Think Stratocaster type selector), allowing you to change between 3 capacitors while still having a "make before break" function.

These can also be had in DP versions... here's a picture to give an idea: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3334/...2e723b8c10.jpg

You can see in the picture that "A" is common for one pole, and "B" is common for the other pole.
There will be 5 "indents" (positions) in the switch, allowing: A+1, A+1&2, A+2, A+2&3, or A+3
The same pattern applies with the "B" pole, at the same time... so you could switch between 3 capacitors on a PAIR of speakers with just this one switch.

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I have a WT2, don't care much for the WT3, and have some caps on the way that I can do that with. I'll play them for awhile, and retake the measurement.
Sometimes I won't hear a click, so we'll have to see.

Later,
Wolf

[dantheman]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Sorry, but what is that inferring? That I didn't conduct my test as others wanted? Oh well, no sweat off of my back...

You can see how your statement can be taken as ambiguous now can't you?
You have been stating things without much defining and clarification, so please be more succinct.

Later,
Wolf

Like the medical field.

Dan

[DoubleTap]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Do you have any thoughts about what electrical property of the crossover is changing when you swap two caps?

Although my reasoning may be misguided, I would think an audible change in the "soundstage" would require a measureable change in the power response (which one could assay by measuring the SPL/phase at +30/+15/0/-15/-30). At the same time, I don't see how swapping capacitors with nearly identical electrical properties could modify the power response.

Ideas?

I highly doubt it would change the measured power response.

Ideas? Pretty simple ... there's more to how a speaker sounds than just a 6th octave FR curve.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I mentioned this exactly in post #234. (No one reads my posts! :( ... kidding, kidding.)
Though I should also point out that you could use a 5-way switch as well (Think Stratocaster type selector), allowing you to change between 3 capacitors while still having a "make before break" function.

I'm definitely reading your posts and everyone else's.

Funny....my 20yr old son is a guitarist-- he has 4 guitars, including a Strat and a Gibson....nice switches on both...very quiet, but NOT silent. I don't think we can get a truly silent switch, but that can be dealt with I suppose. I have trouble visualizing how the cap switching circuit could look with anything other than a DPDT-type switch, since I have to be able to fully isolate each cap. For the brand vs. brand test, I simply must have a stereo signal and I won't even bother doing the test if it can't be that way, so that complicates matters more.

Guess I have to do some switch homework, unless somebody can actually find and post the right switch for this crap - for the brand vs. brand test -- basically think along the lines of "large and quiet switch that can toggle between 2 sets of stereo speakers" -- that will work!! I will buy it, if you post it. :D

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Like the medical field.

Dan

Oh well; done.
Wolf

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

If you have a WT2, it would be interesting to run an arbscan on a pre-clicked and post-clicked cap. If you don't, send me a pair and I'll gladly run the test. You can even not tell me which is which so we have at least a blind test.

I'd do all this myself, but I have yet to experience the clicking phenomenon.

I would be interested in seeing this done. I have more caps in the mail as we speak, but they are Daytons -- not boutiques. None-the-less, I'd not mind cooking one and sending you the pair for your analysis. I will mark them so only I know which is which.