Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

DBT on caps were done a number of times by a lot of different people. If done correctly, none can spot the difference between the capacitors, burned in or fresh. You are wasting your time but hey do it for the laugh.

I'm guaranteed to waste time on this silly project no matter what, but now I'm thinking of burning in half the caps with a dummy load for maybe a few days and comparing those straight away to the untouched ones, by simply running back and forth between the 2 speakers with the balance knob and a mono music signal -- that's easy enough to do. And BTW, no fancy schmancy test equipment either....just my wrinkled ears for testing purposes.

Funny....the whole reason I even started this was to improve the sound of my workstation speakers, which was accomplished. Then I did a couple sets of small surround speakers.....Now I'm hooked on crossover mods, and I want to invest in a woodshop so I can start cranking out DIY speakers. What have I done??

[Herman Trivilino]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

However, I decided to also buy 3 more sets of decent hi-pass caps and do a comparison in the same set of speakers to see which one yielded the absolute best sound.

You can connect them together, in parallel if you like, and then connect them to either a dummy load or an old driver you've got lying around, and let them run for a couple of days or so. Just don't crank the volume too high.

I'm no scientist, engineer, techie, or anything like that.

Yet you have the ability to swap out capacitors in a crossover circuit. If you have that ability, then you have the ability to wire up the double-throw switch I talked about and do the test.

[Herman Trivilino]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

The caps I plan to compare are:
Jantzen 8.2uF Z-Superior Caps = $76.62 (pair)
ClarityCap 8.2uF ESA Caps = $51.30 (pair)
Sonicap 8.2uF G1 Caps = $32.60 (pair)
Dayton PMPC-8.2 8.2uF 250V Precision Audio Caps = $11.98 (pair)

Only the Jantzen's are seasoned -- and they are fricken sweet.

Wow! I spent $75 on all the parts I needed to build a pair of ntn's. That includes the $1.76 I spent on four NPE 4.0 µF caps.

[ougryphon]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

So this is slightly off topic, but I've been wondering just what exactly you are getting when you pay like $50 for a single cap? Lower inductance? Lower ESR? Linear capacitance?
I know I can get a 250V poly cap from Digikey for the change I can find in my couch cushions, but something tells me it's not the same quality as an Auricap literally costing 50 times as much. I'm inclined to think it's not ALL just in the mind of the beholder (although that there is bound to be a fair bit of bias from someone who just dropped a C-note on a cross-over upgrade).
The problem is I can't find specs for tan delta or shunt inductance for these high-end caps, so I have no basis on which to judge them except cost. Anyway, if I had some idea what separates the great from the mediocre, I might have some idea if "burn in" is bunk or not since I could at least make a guess at the underlying mechanism.
-Gryphon

[thekorvers]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

DBT on caps were done a number of times by a lot of different people. If done correctly, none can spot the difference between the capacitors, burned in or fresh. You are wasting your time but hey do it for the laugh.

+1

I believe Jantzen, ClarityCap and Sonicap got together and founded the Wattgate Co.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=110-439

[Leroy R]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Audio grade electrical outlets?!?!? I thought Monsters over sized and over priced cables were the biggest marketing ripoff in the audio industry.

[Herman Trivilino]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

So this is slightly off topic, but I've been wondering just what exactly you are getting when you pay like $50 for a single cap? Lower inductance? Lower ESR? Linear capacitance?

The same thing you get when you buy Advil instead of Walgreen's brand ibuprofin. In addition to the medicine, you get a trusted brand name, better advertising, but most of all you get to feel better about yourself because you're among those who can afford to buy nothing but the best. It may cost more, but you're worth it.

[r-carpenter]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

The same thing you get when you buy Advil instead of Walgreen's brand ibuprofin. In addition to the medicine, you get a trusted brand name, better advertising, but most of all you get to feel better about yourself because you're among those who can afford to buy nothing but the best. It may cost more, but you're worth it.

also: a well designed colorful label on the bottle, just generally better packaging and appeal.

[carlspeak]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Visit post #2 at this thread

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=2252&st=0&p=64047&hl=capacitor&fromsearch=1&#entry64047

and download the paper I wrote a few years back wherein I used spectral waveform analysis on three widely different priced 4.7 uF caps fresh and 'broken in'. As Zilch would say: Just the data - no subjective/anecdotal comparative impressions. Close to 900 downloads so far.
I won't divulge the test results here. Perhaps some brave soul reading this post might be willing to repeat this study with a better test mic and software and share the results? The test rig is certainly easy enough to build using a spare tweeter and 3 switches.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I thought Monsters over sized and over priced cables were the biggest marketing ripoff in the audio industry.

Not even close.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

http://www.audiosold.com/breakin_2.html

http://www.audiosold.com/breakinservice.htm

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06#feature

If you want to become an oddiophile cut a small hole in your pants pocket. Walk to a toy store, buy enough marbles to fill said pocket. Walk home. When you've lost all your marbles you are an oddiophile.

Visit post #2 at this thread

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=2252&st=0&p=64047&hl=capacitor&fromsearch=1&#entry64047

and download the paper I wrote a few years back wherein I used spectral waveform analysis on three widely different priced 4.7 uF caps fresh and 'broken in'.

Very nicely done. As you allude to what's often attributed to the benefits of 'break-in' is just your ears/brain getting used to what you're hearing. Even drivers, which being mechanical do break-in, reach most of their capabilities after no more than 40 hours of usage. When I see speaker manufacturers claim that 400 hours or more are required for full break in my BS meter peaks. All that changes between 40 and 400 hours is that you get used to how your new marvels sound, and that the return period for full credit expires.

[Tony G]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

The same thing you get when you buy Advil instead of Walgreen's brand ibuprofin. In addition to the medicine, you get a trusted brand name, better advertising, but most of all you get to feel better about yourself because you're among those who can afford to buy nothing but the best. It may cost more, but you're worth it.

/ot to caps
I forget if ibuprofen is this way, but with some medicines, there are enantiomers which have different effects (sometimes, one enantiomers is actually the "active" ingredient and the other is neutral to the body). ...and the genererics don't bother refining to increase the ratio of the good one, or synthsis in an enantiomerically pure fashion. On the bottles, the enantiomeric ratio is never specified. Sometimes generic really IS different

[MLS]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

My Sonicaps hit their stride at about what I would estimate @ 400 hours and have been stabilized since then.

[Deward Hastings]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I let mine "burn in" until they "burn out" . . . and then I replace them.

[carlspeak]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Not even close.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

http://www.audiosold.com/breakin_2.html

http://www.audiosold.com/breakinservice.htm

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06#feature

If you want to become an oddiophile cut a small hole in your pants pocket. Walk to a toy store, buy enough marbles to fill said pocket. Walk home. When you've lost all your marbles you are an oddiophile.



Very nicely done. As you allude to what's often attributed to the benefits of 'break-in' is just your ears/brain getting used to what you're hearing. Even drivers, which being mechanical do break-in, reach most of their capabilities after no more than 40 hours of usage. When I see speaker manufacturers claim that 400 hours or more are required for full break in my BS meter peaks. All that changes between 40 and 400 hours is that you get used to how your new marvels sound, and that the return period for full credit expires.

When I can find the time, I plan to revisit the test set up with a better test mic (Behringer ECM8000) and, instead of using spectral waveform analysis (didn't lend itself to quantitative analysis), I'll do freq. resp. tests using a pink noise signal and run statistical analysis on the frd files. I have yet to think thru what the statistical results might mean. Suppose there is a statistical difference between a $1 cap and a $32 cap? Does more scatter in the data indicate more data getting thru a 'better' cap? or, less scatter? I'm up to my ears now in work and when I have time I'll think about the analysis phase. The test set up is the easy part.

[Face]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

if Any Of You Would Use A Teflon V-cap You'd Believe In Burn In ... Of Course You'd Have To Crack Open Your Wallet With A Crowbar To Buy One, And Scrub The Barnacles Out Of Your Ears To Hear The Difference. And Even If You Did Miraculously Hear The Difference With Your Ears Of Stone, You'd Probably Ignore The Truth Because Of Your Hardened Preconceptions Of Audio Hogwash Voodoo.

... There, I Feel Better :d

+1...

:d