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Burning in hi-pass capacitors

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  • #46
    Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

    One thing that has to be done is to make sure the caps actually, you know, measure the same. Tolerances vary, and can impact things. I would guess that +/- 1% or less of each other would be adequate.
    Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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    • #47
      Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

      Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
      No need to crack open the wallet; surplus Russian milspec teflon caps are all over eBay for peanuts, sometimes as little as $1/ea. Or less.
      and yet on Russian audio forums(which I visit from time to time), Russian mil spec caps are regarded just about as Daytons by audiophiles. I find it hilarious.
      http://www.diy-ny.com/

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      • #48
        Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

        Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
        As far as my project goes, I've made up my mind. In the end, I will be letting my ears (and a buddie's ears) be the judge. Promise to be honest :D

        I'm getting an 8 Ohm 100W Non-Inductive Dummy Load Resistor.

        I have seasoned Jantzen Superior Z's, so no burn-in required.
        I will also be trying these:
        ClarityCap 8.2uF ESA Caps
        Sonicap 8.2uF G1 Caps
        Dayton PMPC-8.2 8.2uF 250V Precision Audio Caps

        The plan is to build the XO's and swap the 4 hi-pass caps and compare.

        I will first compare the 3 pairs of brand new caps against the seasoned Jantzens. I am very familiar with the "Jantzen sound" of these speakers so it should be fairly easy to compare brand new (unburned) caps against these.

        Jantzens will be put to the side while I burn in (via dummy load resistor), half of the new caps. Then a side-by-side speaker comparison will be done with a mono music signal, to judge whether there is a noticeable difference in sound quality between the burned-in dummy load caps and the brand new caps.

        Finally, the balance of the caps will be burned in the exact same way as the first half and then a full comparison will be made across all four manufacturers. No test equipment - only two sets of ears. Should be fun.

        I'm no scientist.
        If you want this to be meaningful, you need to have the caps measured and match to better then the resolution of your ears. I have no way to quantify that, but the concept is relevant to this thread. Then you'll need to do multiple double blind sessions to get meaningful statistics. No matter how hard you want to be unbiased....

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        • #49
          Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

          Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
          and yet on Russian audio forums(which I visit from time to time), Russian mil spec caps are regarded just about as Daytons by audiophiles. I find it hilarious.
          People are quite often hilarious, especially when it comes to our various passions in areas in which we profess a greater knowledge than the average man. The great, eternal cap-style debate shows up on martial arts forums as well. It has been demonstrated that classical karate training is woefully inadequate for any kind of serious applications ranging from police work to professional fighting. What you are left with are a lot of people insisting that it is just a lack of understanding on the part of the detractors - never mind that classical karate proponents routinely get beat up by people with a much more progressive training program. That is not to say the elements are not there in classical karate, but they have spent so much time and energy convincing themselves that it is still relevant the way it is - they turn a blind eye to the evidence at hand.
          Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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          • #50
            Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

            I agree with Tony. If you are doing qualitative analysis of the caps using just your ears, you need to do a double blind study or the results are garbage. There is just way too much observer bias.

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            • #51
              Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

              Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
              As far as my project goes, I've made up my mind. In the end, I will be letting my ears (and a buddie's ears) be the judge. Promise to be honest :D
              Please understand that it's not your integrity that's in question here.

              Finally, the balance of the caps will be burned in the exact same way as the first half and then a full comparison will be made across all four manufacturers. No test equipment - only two sets of ears. Should be fun.
              I'm also glad. I like doing stuff like this, too.

              I'm no scientist.
              You don't need to be a scientist to understand the fundamental contentious issue here. The placebo effect is real. It's not a result of dishonesty. It's a result of being human. The only way to get meaningful results from your listening comparison is to do double-blind testing. That means that as you compare the two speakers you're listening to, you can't know which one has which cap installed in its crossover. That makes it blind. Moreover, the helper you recruit to do the connecting and the placement in the listening room of the speaker cabinets can't know which cabinet has which caps installed, either. That makes it double-blind. If there's anyone else who knows which speaker has which cap, that person can't be anywhere near the test, or in any way in communication with the people taking the test.

              If you really want to honor your promise to be honest, this is the only way to make it meaningful. Above all, you have to be honest with yourself and admit that it's at least possible that the placebo effect is the reason you thought one speaker sounded better than the other. Then, when you're doing your testing you have to convince yourself that it's really not the placebo effect. The only way to do that is to make the tests double-blind.

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              • #52
                Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                I won't divulge the test results here.
                I won't ask you to, then. But would you at least tell us what you use for caps when building or designing your speakers?

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                • #53
                  Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                  Originally posted by Tony G View Post
                  Then you'll need to do multiple double blind sessions to get meaningful statistics. No matter how hard you want to be unbiased....
                  Good thing I'm making external XO's, as I'm sure there will be many more suggestions on how to do this.

                  I'm going to do the burn-in and listening tests as I outlined. I have no clue what this is going to end up proving or disproving. I would be more than happy to share the results here but ultimately I will pick a cap that I like which will remain in the crossover. At the end of the day the cap that my ears like, wins. I guess that's pretty biased.
                  Bryan K.

                  Midwest Audio Club

                  Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                    unless you do a proper DBT, you my as well tell me what color do you like most. Actually, color preference will have more validity.
                    http://www.diy-ny.com/

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                      Originally posted by Herman Trivilino View Post
                      I won't ask you to, then. But would you at least tell us what you use for caps when building or designing your speakers?
                      It all depends on what speaker or crossover I'm working on. I choose the cap brand that fits the overall level of quality. Some of my regular choices are Jantzen, Mundorf, Auricap, Sonicap, ClarityCap, Dayton and even Bennic NPE's for larger values. I won't use RS NPE's because of the awful results I found with the Nichicon's in the paper I wrote that was referenced earlier.
                      Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                        Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
                        At the end of the day the cap that my ears like, wins. I guess that's pretty biased.
                        Yeah, that's kind of the whole point we're trying to make: your ears are biased, but they are biased by your brain due to the placebo effect/observer bias. You will end up choosing the cap that you think sounds the best, but unless you do a DBT we have zero confidence that it is actually the best sounding, even to your own ears.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                          [QUOTE=billfitzmaurice;1724779I haven't done anything 'scientific', but I have no illusions that I, or anyone else, can hear differences in response with anything even remotely approaching the accuracy of my USB mic/soundcard.[/QUOTE]

                          Yes, that would requre your ears to be hooked up to something useful between them, Bill. HA! :p Sorry, it was too low of fruit not to pick.

                          The one stance I take, and always will: a mic will never replace the summation of sound our brains do which generate our preception. That is why even the uber-glaken mic that can measure to impossible-hertz with giga-K resoultion is STILL nothing but a tool.

                          From there is it up to a human to use their ears, make coorilations to the data, and figure out what works for them... Which is not always what the "guru's" say.

                          If it all was as easy as trusting a mic 100%, there would be no need for the diversity in this hobby.

                          It's art built on the foundation of science! :eek:
                          .

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                          • #58
                            Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                            Originally posted by ougryphon View Post
                            unless you do a DBT we have zero confidence that it is actually the best sounding, even to your own ears.
                            Yes yes, understood. So I need a third party to be involved with me and my listening partner. I think that can be done without a problem.

                            When I build these XO's I'm going to install the hi-pass cap between 2 binding posts, so they can be easily swapped out. That, and the fact that they will be externals means a DBT is not a problem. We can have some real fun with this too :D

                            Wouldn't it be a Pi$$er if the $3.37 DAYTON's were chosen by me to "sound" better than my beloved Jantzen's ??

                            I'm totally open to that outcome BTW.....if that's the outcome then I chalk it up to synergies with that particular speaker and we keep the Dayton's in. I have plenty of other crossovers to do ;)
                            Bryan K.

                            Midwest Audio Club

                            Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                              I'm very pleased by the pleasant tone of this thread. Could it be that this forum is outgrowing its typical flame wars?

                              Different viewpoints make these discussions interesting.

                              Ruffled feathers over a recreational hobby make them stupid.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                                Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
                                Wouldn't it be a Pi$$er if the $3.37 DAYTON's were chosen by me to "sound" better than my beloved Jantzen's ??
                                In that case, you would be totally objective and your test would be teh shi*

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