Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[PWR RYD]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Let me make sure I understand where you are going with this. You have gone out and spent a good deal of money on a bunch of audio capacitors. You state that you don't have a decent meter to measure any cap values. Then you say that you are no audiophile. So tell me again what is the purpose of all of this????

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Sorry, but I just can't leave this alone. IMO, it's more than just "measuring" response. The right crossover (therefore, the right caps) can improve imaging, soundstage, depth, transparency....things that are lost in translation when strictly "measuring response." JMHO. I would not say this if I had not experienced it. Even if you had THIS, it's not going to "hear" the music like your ears and perceive it like your noodle.

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

Oddiophiles always go back to the well of 'imaging, soundstaging, depth, etc.' saying that these ephemeral qualities can't be measured and the quest for them justifies throwing money away. The fact of the matter is that everything can, and has, been measured, except for the depth and breadth of human gullibility.

[PWR RYD]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Wolf you obviously know how to design and build fantasic speakers. The pair you had at DIY Iowa this fall blew me away! I don't know for sure but would be willing to bet that you have some nice measurement equipment. I think you spent a great deal of time researching, building, preparing, etc. your cap test. I could here differences when you switched from A to B to C, but my inexperience could not tell exactly "what" was better or different. In a nut shell I totally respect your test even though my untrained ears were my personal short coming. My long winded point is... you showed me your cap test rig afterwards and I was amazed that we (DIY Iowa) were listening to caps that ranged from HIGH END metal foil caps, to "audio grade" non-polarized electrolytics, to cheap a$$ motor start capacitors (the ones you can buy at Graingers that are used to start a single phase AC motor in the correct direction).

The test proposed by the OP is using only reasonable quality or higher film caps.

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Wolf you obviously know how to design and build fantasic speakers. The pair you had at DIY Iowa this fall blew me away! I don't know for sure but would be willing to bet that you have some nice measurement equipment. I think you spent a great deal of time researching, building, preparing, etc. your cap test. I could here differences when you switched from A to B to C, but my inexperience could not tell exactly "what" was better or different. In a nut shell I totally respect your test even though my untrained ears were my personal short coming. My long winded point is... you showed me your cap test rig afterwards and I was amazed that we (DIY Iowa) were listening to caps that ranged from HIGH END metal foil caps, to "audio grade" non-polarized electrolytics, to cheap a$$ motor start capacitors (the ones you can buy at Graingers that are used to start a single phase AC motor in the correct direction).

The test proposed by the OP is using only reasonable quality or higher film caps.

Mind you- not all caps in the cases were actually being used at any one time.

Measuring equipment? Let's see..
My ears
WT2
RM/PCD (and knowledge of how to use the parts and where, the 'black art' as Paul puts it.)
LC meter
VOM

I actually did not use any direct FR measurements for the simulation, believe it or not. I did have actual sample results for the mids and woofers, but not the tweeters. What you heard was a sim I actually started back about 2007, and finally acquired the parts for everything in 2009. When the parts count became rather high, I decided to use the 8 pole Neutriks I'd had for 5 years to make outboards and keep the internal cab volume stable.

Then it snowballed... :eek:

I readjusted the sim for the large roundovers to minimize ripple. This was an after-thought from the Vijon project, and it worked well.
I made actual impedance/spacing/alignment measurements and models to refine the values needed, and started ordering caps and measuring them about every 3-4 months. The whole process of building these was less than a year, but the research and development was closer to 3 years, one whole year for the cap-test portion alone.

And to think- the actual finalized voiced xover only had an ohm increase on the tweeter over the last phase in refining the simulation.

I thank you for your very kind words,
Wolf

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

No. I only have a crappy digital multimeter from Rat Shack. For the purposes of my test, why do I need to measure my caps before I build the crossovers?

Because caps can vary in value from their specs. The naysayers will say this variance is what you hear and not any differences in the caps themselves.

Not just naysayers, but anyone worth their salt who cares about results. Without tight tolerances between cap values, dropping different caps in there will affect frequency response, and therefore, the sound you hear. In that case, it wouldn't be the cap type producing the difference, but the value change and its change on response.

If you really care about attempting to hear the differences in types, then you really need to verify that the caps under test are as close in value to each other as possible.

[Face]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

Oddiophiles always go back to the well of 'imaging, soundstaging, depth, etc.'

Bill, it's obvious that you may not care about those things, but many of us do.

[lunchmoney]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[mattp]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

That made my night!!

[Wolf]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Says he who did not participate in mine...:rolleyes::p:D You know I measured mine.
Wolf

[DoubleTap]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Bill, it's obvious that you may not care about those things, but many of us do.

No kidding there!

For me, the soundstage is probably 3/4 of what I work towards in a final result. Tonal accuracy is easy to acheive in comparison, and not as important in creating the 'being there' illusion.

[r-carpenter]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

maybe swap out the iron core inductors for some air-coils, yeah buddy!. That's some good audio there ;)

people sometimes forget about coil resistance and it's intended and calculated use in the passive crossover.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Wow...wondering if I should even bother. I like the idea of a DBT, and I'm going to do that for my own edification. I have $3 caps and $40 caps and stuff in between. But if posting the results is going to be deemed hogwash because I don't have a fancy multimeter, then is it really worth my time to package everything up and post it on this thread or ANY thread? I wonder if folks who do DIY speakers with NPE's and bypasses care? Hmmm...prob not. Have a good weekend.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Bill, it's obvious that you may not care about those things, but many of us do.

Not only do I care, I know how to get what I want. BTW, the pic you showed was my HT (a few years ago, before I got my 55"). This is what I use for music:

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Wow...wondering if I should even bother. I like the idea of a DBT, and I'm going to do that for my own edification. I have $3 caps and $40 caps and stuff in between. But if posting the results is going to be deemed hogwash because I don't have a fancy multimeter, then is it really worth my time to package everything up and post it on this thread or ANY thread? I wonder if folks who do DIY speakers with NPE's and bypasses care? Hmmm...prob not. Have a good weekend.

Then again, many DIY'er have multimeters that allow them to unwind inductors to a special value, which also allow them to measure capacitors to see how closely matched they are.

If that simple step is too much for you, then you're right, it won't be worth posting due to the obvious gap in the methodology.

[natediggidy]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Wow...wondering if I should even bother. I like the idea of a DBT, and I'm going to do that for my own edification. I have $3 caps and $40 caps and stuff in between. But if posting the results is going to be deemed hogwash because I don't have a fancy multimeter, then is it really worth my time to package everything up and post it on this thread or ANY thread? I wonder if folks who do DIY speakers with NPE's and bypasses care? Hmmm...prob not. Have a good weekend.

It's a shame that no matter what you do, someone's gonna throw a BS flag on it. Many others are interested and will look on it with an open mind.