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Burning in hi-pass capacitors

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  • #76
    Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

    Let me make sure I understand where you are going with this. You have gone out and spent a good deal of money on a bunch of audio capacitors. You state that you don't have a decent meter to measure any cap values. Then you say that you are no audiophile. So tell me again what is the purpose of all of this????
    Craig

    I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

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    • #77
      Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

      Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
      Sorry, but I just can't leave this alone. IMO, it's more than just "measuring" response. The right crossover (therefore, the right caps) can improve imaging, soundstage, depth, transparency....things that are lost in translation when strictly "measuring response." JMHO. I would not say this if I had not experienced it. Even if you had THIS, it's not going to "hear" the music like your ears and perceive it like your noodle.
      Watch this:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
      Oddiophiles always go back to the well of 'imaging, soundstaging, depth, etc.' saying that these ephemeral qualities can't be measured and the quest for them justifies throwing money away. The fact of the matter is that everything can, and has, been measured, except for the depth and breadth of human gullibility.
      www.billfitzmaurice.com
      www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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      • #78
        Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

        Wolf you obviously know how to design and build fantasic speakers. The pair you had at DIY Iowa this fall blew me away! I don't know for sure but would be willing to bet that you have some nice measurement equipment. I think you spent a great deal of time researching, building, preparing, etc. your cap test. I could here differences when you switched from A to B to C, but my inexperience could not tell exactly "what" was better or different. In a nut shell I totally respect your test even though my untrained ears were my personal short coming. My long winded point is... you showed me your cap test rig afterwards and I was amazed that we (DIY Iowa) were listening to caps that ranged from HIGH END metal foil caps, to "audio grade" non-polarized electrolytics, to cheap a$$ motor start capacitors (the ones you can buy at Graingers that are used to start a single phase AC motor in the correct direction).

        The test proposed by the OP is using only reasonable quality or higher film caps.
        Craig

        I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

          Originally posted by PWR RYD View Post
          Wolf you obviously know how to design and build fantasic speakers. The pair you had at DIY Iowa this fall blew me away! I don't know for sure but would be willing to bet that you have some nice measurement equipment. I think you spent a great deal of time researching, building, preparing, etc. your cap test. I could here differences when you switched from A to B to C, but my inexperience could not tell exactly "what" was better or different. In a nut shell I totally respect your test even though my untrained ears were my personal short coming. My long winded point is... you showed me your cap test rig afterwards and I was amazed that we (DIY Iowa) were listening to caps that ranged from HIGH END metal foil caps, to "audio grade" non-polarized electrolytics, to cheap a$$ motor start capacitors (the ones you can buy at Graingers that are used to start a single phase AC motor in the correct direction).

          The test proposed by the OP is using only reasonable quality or higher film caps.
          Mind you- not all caps in the cases were actually being used at any one time.

          Measuring equipment? Let's see..
          My ears
          WT2
          RM/PCD (and knowledge of how to use the parts and where, the 'black art' as Paul puts it.)
          LC meter
          VOM

          I actually did not use any direct FR measurements for the simulation, believe it or not. I did have actual sample results for the mids and woofers, but not the tweeters. What you heard was a sim I actually started back about 2007, and finally acquired the parts for everything in 2009. When the parts count became rather high, I decided to use the 8 pole Neutriks I'd had for 5 years to make outboards and keep the internal cab volume stable.

          Then it snowballed... :eek:

          I readjusted the sim for the large roundovers to minimize ripple. This was an after-thought from the Vijon project, and it worked well.
          I made actual impedance/spacing/alignment measurements and models to refine the values needed, and started ordering caps and measuring them about every 3-4 months. The whole process of building these was less than a year, but the research and development was closer to 3 years, one whole year for the cap-test portion alone.

          And to think- the actual finalized voiced xover only had an ohm increase on the tweeter over the last phase in refining the simulation.

          I thank you for your very kind words,
          Wolf
          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

          *InDIYana event website*

          Photobucket pages:
          https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

          My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

            Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
            No. I only have a crappy digital multimeter from Rat Shack. For the purposes of my test, why do I need to measure my caps before I build the crossovers?
            Originally posted by natediggidy View Post
            Because caps can vary in value from their specs. The naysayers will say this variance is what you hear and not any differences in the caps themselves.
            Not just naysayers, but anyone worth their salt who cares about results. Without tight tolerances between cap values, dropping different caps in there will affect frequency response, and therefore, the sound you hear. In that case, it wouldn't be the cap type producing the difference, but the value change and its change on response.

            If you really care about attempting to hear the differences in types, then you really need to verify that the caps under test are as close in value to each other as possible.
            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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            • #81
              Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

              Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
              Watch this:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
              Oddiophiles always go back to the well of 'imaging, soundstaging, depth, etc.'
              Bill, it's obvious that you may not care about those things, but many of us do.

              "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

              http://www.diy-ny.com/

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              • #82
                Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                  Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                  That made my night!!
                  Your results may vary.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                    Says he who did not participate in mine...:rolleyes::p:D You know I measured mine.
                    Wolf
                    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                    "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                    "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                    *InDIYana event website*

                    Photobucket pages:
                    https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

                    My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                      Originally posted by Face View Post
                      Bill, it's obvious that you may not care about those things, but many of us do.

                      No kidding there!

                      For me, the soundstage is probably 3/4 of what I work towards in a final result. Tonal accuracy is easy to acheive in comparison, and not as important in creating the 'being there' illusion.
                      Vapor Audio

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                        Originally posted by natediggidy View Post
                        maybe swap out the iron core inductors for some air-coils, yeah buddy!. That's some good audio there ;)
                        people sometimes forget about coil resistance and it's intended and calculated use in the passive crossover.
                        http://www.diy-ny.com/

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                          Wow...wondering if I should even bother. I like the idea of a DBT, and I'm going to do that for my own edification. I have $3 caps and $40 caps and stuff in between. But if posting the results is going to be deemed hogwash because I don't have a fancy multimeter, then is it really worth my time to package everything up and post it on this thread or ANY thread? I wonder if folks who do DIY speakers with NPE's and bypasses care? Hmmm...prob not. Have a good weekend.
                          Bryan K.

                          Midwest Audio Club

                          Speedster | | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | , COUGAR II and | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

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                          • #88
                            Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                            Originally posted by Face View Post
                            Bill, it's obvious that you may not care about those things, but many of us do.
                            Not only do I care, I know how to get what I want. BTW, the pic you showed was my HT (a few years ago, before I got my 55"). This is what I use for music:
                            www.billfitzmaurice.com
                            www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                              Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
                              Wow...wondering if I should even bother. I like the idea of a DBT, and I'm going to do that for my own edification. I have $3 caps and $40 caps and stuff in between. But if posting the results is going to be deemed hogwash because I don't have a fancy multimeter, then is it really worth my time to package everything up and post it on this thread or ANY thread? I wonder if folks who do DIY speakers with NPE's and bypasses care? Hmmm...prob not. Have a good weekend.
                              Then again, many DIY'er have multimeters that allow them to unwind inductors to a special value, which also allow them to measure capacitors to see how closely matched they are.

                              If that simple step is too much for you, then you're right, it won't be worth posting due to the obvious gap in the methodology.
                              R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                              Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                              95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                              "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

                                Originally posted by bkeane1259 View Post
                                Wow...wondering if I should even bother. I like the idea of a DBT, and I'm going to do that for my own edification. I have $3 caps and $40 caps and stuff in between. But if posting the results is going to be deemed hogwash because I don't have a fancy multimeter, then is it really worth my time to package everything up and post it on this thread or ANY thread? I wonder if folks who do DIY speakers with NPE's and bypasses care? Hmmm...prob not. Have a good weekend.
                                It's a shame that no matter what you do, someone's gonna throw a BS flag on it. Many others are interested and will look on it with an open mind.

                                Comment

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