Burning in hi-pass capacitors

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

"Imaging" is a real property of loudspeakers (several properties, actually). Imaging can't be measured.

Of course it can. It just requires simultaneous measurement of those several properties. If you can't measure what's responsible for imaging it's only because you lack either the necessary gear or skills.
Pure snake-oil is the claim that a more expensive cap can improve imaging. Said claims are never backed up by any objective data, nor for that matter even a semi-logical explanation of how this magical effect is accomplished, aside from 'it costs more, so it must be better. If you can't hear the difference there's something wrong with you'. To which I can only respond:

[mzisserson]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Of course it can. It just requires simultaneous measurement of those several properties. If you can't measure what's responsible for imaging it's only because you lack either the necessary gear or skills.
Pure snake-oil is the claim that a more expensive cap can improve imaging. Said claims are never backed up by any objective data, nor for that matter even a semi-logical explanation of how this magical effect is accomplished, aside from 'it costs more, so it must be better. If you can't hear the difference there's something wrong with you'. To which I can only respond:

This is the stuff that drives me crazy. As usual, it is turning into a Subjective vs. Objective flame war. So much so you feel the need to keep a facepalm gif in your imageshack account for such occasions!

Bill, your a fairly bright guy, but I see NONE of the proof backing up your claim that is specifically related to. It is just as thrown out there as someone saying subjecivaly that one cap is better than another.

I recently had my hearing tested for surgry I am having in my sinuses/nasal cavities. I had a lengthy conversation with the audiologist about the standard prime range of human intelligibility which all of the scientific journals agree is from 125Hz -8000Hz.

He said what is interesting is a recent shift in thought and an uproar throughout the audiology collabritave that information as high as 30K and as low as 10Hz can generate harmonic queues in our everyday life that detirmines things such as direction, type (i.e. sharp, dull, loud, soft), and intelligibilty of the sound. This inclused vocal sounds such as vowels which are generally low FQ's, and s's +t's which occur at higher frequencies.

So I pose this question to you and other objectivists: If the foremost authorites in the world agree human hearing is far more sensitave and perceptive than once thought, why COULDN'T one detect minor differences in capacitor types? The Objectivist crew still has not posted evidence after all these years why, nor has the Subjectivist crew why not.

In the mean time, I *WAS* enjoying this thread and look forward to the result. Any input is good input if you do the right things with it.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

If the foremost authorites in the world agree human hearing is far more sensitave and perceptive than once thought, why COULDN'T one detect minor differences in capacitor types? .

One very well may, just as one may detect differences in wire types. That's not something that objectivists object to. What we do object to is claims made that differences that may exist cause an improvement in performance only proportional to an increase in price, and for that matter that said differences actually do realize improvement, rather than being just different.

[OlderMongrel]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Of course it can.

Well, no it can't. You can measure lots of stuff that affects imaging, although the relationship between those measurements and imaging is imprecise and subjective. That's not what I'm talking about. I mean, there are no "imaging measurements", independent of FR, phase, distortion, etc. It can't be quantified. I should note that you might reach a consensus about the imaging properties of a given speaker, or even about properties that contribute to imaging, but that's not a measurement. If you have a set of imaging measurement on a speaker (or speaker pair), I'd like to see them.

Don't think that I therefore condone the snake oil side of things, as I've already said. You should never overlook measurements, if they are available, and we should try to do better at measuring.

There are things that science still does not understand about lightning. We don't understand anything completely, and we can't measure any complex phenomenon completely or perfectly.

[carlspeak]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

With regard to acoustic & psychoacoustic measurements, the link below was created by long time audio guru Ken Kantor. Read thru the first few threads about who's doing what with measurements.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5344

[mzisserson]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

One very well may, just as one may detect differences in wire types. That's not something that objectivists object to. What we do object to is claims made that differences that may exist cause an improvement in performance only proportional to an increase in price, and for that matter that said differences actually do realize improvement, rather than being just different.

That is a good thing, understand why is as important as noting the difference. Not worth the de-rail though. I think a lot of the why's around cap types will come with different measurements than just Fq responce, Distortion plots, waterfalls, etc. We shall see, hopefully someone will be inspired enough to do it.

[mzisserson]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

With regard to acoustic & psychoacoustic measurements, the link below was created by long time audio guru Ken Kantor. Read thru the first few threads about who's doing what with measurements.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/I...showtopic=5344

Geze Carl,
He tries to bridge the gap and gets bombed on it. Sad, really. I think th ebig take-away is definately there is an expodintal complexity to it all.

[Face]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Pure snake-oil is the claim that a more expensive cap can improve imaging. Said claims are never backed up by any objective data, nor for that matter even a semi-logical explanation of how this magical effect is accomplished, aside from 'it costs more, so it must be better. If you can't hear the difference there's something wrong with you'.

And here we go again with another one of Bill's tangents. I don't see anyone else here making these claims, you're the only one. I know I've said it many times too, "there is no direct correlation between price and performance".

Bill, you should stick to sub talk. Whenever a topic comes along that has to do with anything expensive, subjective, or possibly unmeasurable, your fangs come out. Unlike the typical Joe Shmoe who posts here, that kind of behavior reflects poorly on you and your business.

[lunchmoney]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Geze Carl,
He tries to bridge the gap and gets bombed on it. Sad, really. I think th ebig take-away is definately there is an expodintal complexity to it all.

"Expodintal" is the audiophile term of the day.

It refers to a very special type of response curve that requires a broad understanding of all the various complexities of loudspeaker design in order to be fully understood, or even seen.

Who loves ya mike ;)

[djg]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I googled that and got zero hits. Must be very special word.

[lunchmoney]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

I googled that and got zero hits. Must be very special word.

It is. Expodintally so.

[carlspeak]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

Man! what a cruel bunch here. :p

Don't that have a spell checker on this board?

BTW, I checked my 4 pg text messaging dictionary and couldn't find what FNTN stood for. Help?

OOPS, MY BAD! I'VE SINCE LEARNED FNTN IS A PERSON - NOT A TEXTING SHORT CUT! :p

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

And here we go again with another one of Bill's tangents. I don't see anyone else here making these claims, you're the only one. I know I've said it many times too, "there is no direct correlation between price and performance".

Bill, you should stick to sub talk. Whenever a topic comes along that has to do with anything expensive, subjective, or possibly unmeasurable, your fangs come out. Unlike the typical Joe Shmoe who posts here, that kind of behavior reflects poorly on you and your business.

And as you seem to only endorse the use of what's expensive, subjective and unmeasurable we obviously have no common ground and nothing to discuss. I could live with that, but since you can't keep things civil and professional I see no reason to waste my time looking at anything you have to say. That being the case adding you to my iggy list, suggest you do the same with me.

[bkeane1259]

Links to low-cost LCR

I see prices ranging from $30-$700. Can somebody point me in the direction of something that is generally accepted as good and please -- much closer to the $30 price point than the $700 end. Thanks. If there's a brick and mortar in Chicago that sells these, then even better. I see that Craftsman has a couple -- anyone have one from Sears?

[djg]

Re: Burning in hi-pass capacitors

The Mastech one at sears got decent reviews on amazon.