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Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

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  • Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

    I'm thinking about two of these for home theater use. Are they good? Am I better off with the Dayton Reference 12"? Cabinet size is not an issue. Just want a sub that can hit some solid deep notes - possibly down to the low 20's.

    Power will be provided by my old soundcraftsmen PM860 power amp (450W RMS per channel at 2 ohm, 300W at 4ohm, 205 at 8ohm. Crossover is an Audiocontrol Phase Coupled Activator (if anyone remembers that far back) with the crossover set to 50Hz.

  • #2
    Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

    I can't tell you whats better. But I've heard that while the lab 12 will work well in ported boxes, It was designed to be horn loaded. And a lot of people here love the Dayton RF subs.

    i hope someone can give you a better answer than that, but it's a start :,
    Duane

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    • #3
      Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

      I do not think you could go wrong with either. I have the eminence in a 80 ltr box tuned to 22hz and it plays low and loud, you can believe the reviews on the PE site. Great for HT and music. The Daytons have a loyal following here and many have gotten great results also. I was thinking of getting the reference, but got a great deal on the Lab12. Having lived with it for some time, I do not find it lacking in any area, but I doubt the Dayton is lacking anything either.

      Chris
      Chris

      Goofing around since 2000.

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      • #4
        Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

        Lab12 looks good for IB use. I was contemplating picking some up for my car

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        • #5
          Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

          Originally posted by contoursvt View Post
          I'm thinking about two of these for home theater use. Are they good? Am I better off with the Dayton Reference 12"?
          Model both, then you'll know. Also model the Titanic 12, the same frame/motor as the Lab 12, but not optimized for horn loading.
          www.billfitzmaurice.com
          www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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          • #6
            Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

            The frame and double stack magnet design are the same as the Titanic but the rest is not the same. The voice coil/diaphragm on the Titanic is considerably heavier and has a higher inductance. The Lab12 has a lower loss suspension with nearly twice the compliance of the Titanic. One has a Kapton former - the other polyamide. The Vas of the Titanic is half that of the Lab12.

            Not sure how the "motors are the same". The frames and magnets appear to be sourced from the same supplier and both have Kevlar re enforced diaphragms, but that's essentially where the similarity ends.

            As for being "optimized for horn loading" - there's no truth to that. The Lab12 may have a stiff, rugged, and light diaphragm with a Q and compliance that lends itself to horn use but it was intended to be used successfully in sealed, vented, and horn loaded designs.

            I've used it in both transmission line and sealed enclosures with excellent results. YMMV.

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            • #7
              Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

              Originally posted by fntn View Post
              As for being "optimized for horn loading" - there's no truth to that.
              Hmm... I thought Danley spec'ed it himself - but it does turn out that 0.38-Q drivers work in just about any alignment.

              The Titanic is just as useful for horns. A design I've been modleing actually looks better with the Titanic than the Lab12 (slightly higher real efficiency at expense of BW). But my bet is that 10 years down the road - when replacements or recones might be neceesary - the Titanics may be a totally different model and the Lab12's will likely still be around.

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              • #8
                Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                Originally posted by wg_ski View Post
                Hmm... I thought Danley spec'ed it himself - but it does turn out that 0.38-Q drivers work in just about any alignment.
                The woofers Danley spec'd from Eminence were a little different from the Lab 12's. The combination of linear excursion, power handling, diaphragm/spider/suspension durability, compliance, and Q that the Lab 12 offers are useful in a variety of loading configurations. Additionally, because typical horn output can be very peaky, it is common for horn designers to seek a driver with a higher Fs than that of the Lab 12 at 22hz. Higher Fs translates to fewer response peaks/dips in the usable range of the sub. This aspect has been discussed at length on forums such as AVS.

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                • #9
                  Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                  Originally posted by wg_ski View Post
                  Hmm... I thought Danley spec'ed it himself -
                  He was highly involved. They took a Titanic frame, used a different cone and dust cap, to hold up to high throat pressures. They used a 6 ohm coil, to compensate for the added impedance of horn loading and get a 4ohm load with two paralleled in the Lab Horn. The rest of the specs were played with as well to give optimum results in a 22 to 28Hz horn. Danley uses something similar now in the DTS-10, more or less a Lab 12 with a Definimax magnet structure. It's tweaked to give best results in a tapped horn.
                  www.billfitzmaurice.com
                  www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                  • #10
                    Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                    Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                    He was highly involved. They took a Titanic frame, used a different cone and dust cap, to hold up to high throat pressures. They used a 6 ohm coil, to compensate for the added impedance of horn loading and get a 4ohm load with two paralleled in the Lab Horn. The rest of the specs were played with as well to give optimum results in a 22 to 28Hz horn. Danley uses something similar now in the DTS-10, more or less a Lab 12 with a Definimax magnet structure. It's tweaked to give best results in a tapped horn.
                    I believe I suggested over on AVS at one point that Danley used the same driver as a Lab 12. I was quickly corrected by either Ritchie or Danley that it was a different unit built to different specs. I think we are in agreement that the Lab 12 is similar to the Danley drivers but disagree that the Lab 12 was "optimized for horn use". Ultimately, this gets down to a chicken/egg debate that isn't worth pursuing. Factually, the Lab 12 is promoted by its manufacturer as a driver suited to a variety of alignments and my limited experience with it bears that out. Anyone contemplating its use in an enclosure other than a horn can rest assured it was intended for those purposes and will perform very well in those configurations.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                      Originally posted by fntn View Post
                      Anyone contemplating its use in an enclosure other than a horn can rest assured it was intended for those purposes and will perform very well in those configurations.
                      I would definetly agree. A great all around low frequency driver.

                      Chris
                      Chris

                      Goofing around since 2000.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                        Hi Everyone, thanks for all the comments. After much thought, I have decided to go with the LAB12's. I'm ordering it from a place up here in Canada. Hopefully they wont take long getting here. I'm excited about trying them out

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                        • #13
                          Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                          Originally posted by fntn View Post
                          As for being "optimized for horn loading" - there's no truth to that.
                          Are you familiar with the Labhorn history?

                          Somewhere around here I have a copy of a bunch of Danley's posts on the Live Audio Board while he was designing the Labhorn. I can send you a copy if you like. I don't think these posts are still available from the original source.

                          To make a long story short, Danley commissioned the Lab12 driver to be built specifically for the Labsub. That's where the Lab12 came from. It was only a prototype. Danley tested the prototype and suggested some changes, that's where the Lab12 GenII came from. This is documented pretty well in the Live Audio Board posts that I have.

                          It is fairly well known that Danley uses Leach's math a lot for his horn design, and it would only make sense that he would also use Leach's math for his driver design since Leach specified exactly how to choose specific t/s parameters to horn load a specific bandwidth. I'm not sure if this is all documented in the LAB posts I have (I'm pretty sure it's not but it's been a long time since I've read them) but it seems obvious to me that Danley used Leach's math to come up with (at least a starting point for) the Labhorn and used Leach's math to come up with (at least a starting point for) the Lab12 driver to be used in the Labhorn.

                          To suggest the Lab12 was not optimized for horn loading seems a bit near sighted. The driver might work well in other alignments but it was made very specifically for a very specific purpose.

                          (I can also provide a link to Leach's paper on horn design and choosing driver t/s parameters for a specific horn bandwidth if you like.)
                          Don't even try
                          to sort out the lies
                          it's worse to try to understand.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                            Originally posted by diy speaker guy View Post
                            Are you familiar with the Labhorn history?

                            Somewhere around here I have a copy of a bunch of Danley's posts on the Live Audio Board while he was designing the Labhorn. I can send you a copy if you like.

                            To make a long story short, Danley commissioned the Lab12 driver to be built specifically for the Labsub. That's where the Lab12 came from. Danley tested the prototype and suggested some changes, that's where the Lab12 GenII came from. This is documented pretty well in the Live Audio Board posts that I have.

                            It is fairly well known that Danley uses Leach's math a lot for his horn design, and it would only make sense that he would also use Leach's math for his driver design since Leach specified exactly how to choose specific t/s parameters to horn load a specific bandwidth. I'm not sure if this is all documented in the LAB posts I have (I'm pretty sure it's not but it's been a long time since I've read them) but it seems obvious to me that Danley used Leach's math to come up with (at least a starting point for the) Labhorn and used Leach's math to come up with (at least a starting point for the) Lab12 driver to be used in the Labhorn.

                            To suggest the Lab12 was not optimized for horn loading seems a bit near sighted. The driver might work well in other alignments but it was made very specifically for a very specific purpose.
                            I'm very familiar with the history and use of the Lab 12. If you want to argue the point - argue with Ritchie or Danley. They've stated that the drivers used in Danley's cabinets are not Lab 12 s. They do look similar but according to the horse's mouth are not the same. As for being optimized or "optimal", frankly, I don't even consider horn loaded subwoofers as high fidelity components. So to me, suggesting that Danley somehow "optimized" the Lab 12 is a bit of a joke. Bass horns do one thing pretty well and that's about all they do - make a lot of noise for every watt of juice they consume. But their worth in hi fi and how much influence Danley had on the Lab 12's design is another matter for another thread altogether. I know this view might be controversial but one thing that is not controversial is the usability of the driver in a variety of loading configurations. In the end that's all that matters.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Whats the general thought on the Eminence LAB12 driver?

                              Originally posted by fntn View Post
                              I'm very familiar with the history and use of the Lab 12. If you want to argue the point - argue with Ritchie or Danley. They've stated that the drivers used in Danley's cabinets are not Lab 12 s. They do look similar but according to the horse's mouth are not the same.
                              As far as I know, none of Danley's tapped horns use the Lab12 but that doesn't really have anything to do with this conversation. The Lab 12 was designed by Danley for the Labsub. That's fact.

                              As for being optimized or "optimal", frankly, I don't even consider horn loaded subwoofers as high fidelity components. So to me, suggesting that Danley somehow "optimized" the Lab 12 is a bit of a joke. Bass horns do one thing pretty well and that's about all they do - make a lot of noise for every watt of juice they consume. But their worth in hi fi and how much influence Danley had on the Lab 12's design is another matter for another thread altogether. I know this view might be controversial but one thing that is not controversial is the usability of the driver in a variety of loading configurations. In the end that's all that matters.
                              Leach's math is genius. Danley uses Leach's math a lot. To suggest that it's a joke to optimize a horn or a driver for a horn is a joke in itself, regardless of your opinion of horns.


                              The Labsub (as originally modeled) was great but unfortunately when folded up into a box it lost a bit (or a lot) of it's magic due to the drastically undersized rear chambers. Unfortunately no one ever bothered to refold the horn properly with the spec'ed rear chambers. This is all documented in the Live Audio Board posts by Danley that I have.
                              Don't even try
                              to sort out the lies
                              it's worse to try to understand.

                              Comment

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