a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

[waynew]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

My conclusions would be, "I'm glad I think room and speakers are 95% of the sound, and since these amps "sound the same" I don't have to put much more thought into it?"????

see, here's the nice part. I can strive for a measurably perfect amp, and if it sounds the same, I don't care. If it sounds different, is that a bad thing? if so then the amp either wasn't measurably perfect, and I need to figure out where it measures poorly. That, or the other amp is the one that wasn't measurably perfect, and hey, the measurements I have already support that.

And if the perfect measuring amp in fact appears to sound worse, I figure out if perhaps it's because my speakers or room have a problem somehow being highlighted, rather than go on a hopeless quest to find the amp that sound best to my ears?



I'm big on blind listening tests. But if there's one thing you'll learn about them, it's that companies that use them, use them to figure out where to cut costs. That's fine, but no doubt can still have unpredicted consequences. Thorough testing in all respects is necessary. Blind listening is important, but so is measuring. And if it passes the blind listening but fails the measuring, that's cool, but is there a harm in passing the blind listening and passing the measuring?

For example, Axiom Audio uses cheap caps and cored inductors. Their blind tests prove even seasoned listeners can't hear the difference.

that's cool. But do you use cored inductors when you know sufficient guage air cores measure better?

Yes --> Then be happy with what you have
No --> then you agree with me that having well-measuring parts is its own satisfaction - a sense of confidence I suppose.

Can I say with confidence that owning a Parasound separates amp is an audibily smart idea compared to owning a Marantz Receiver? Not really.

But I can say with confidence that it's a superior unit.

Interesting. I believe you concur with my point about enjoyment and thus we can loosely define ourselves into groups. Groups that find the journey what they enjoy (switching amps, cables, building new speakers, tweaking gear). Groups that find enjoyment through acquisition of the latest and greatest. Groups that find enjoyment in proving that you don't have to have the latest and greatest to get good performance. Groups that are constantly trying to define what makes good gear....I am beginning to think the list goes on and on. The point is, we are very diverse group of people, all trying to gain enjoyment out of our hobby.

Hopefully, we can in the immortal words of Rodney King "just get along", regardless of which ideology you suscribe to.

WayneW

[GranteedEV]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

Interesting. I believe you concur with my point about enjoyment and thus we can loosely define ourselves into groups. Groups that find the journey what they enjoy (switching amps, cables, building new speakers, tweaking gear). Groups that find enjoyment through acquisition of the latest and greatest. Groups that find enjoyment in proving that you don't have to have the latest and greatest to get good performance. Groups that are constantly trying to define what makes good gear....I am beginning to think the list goes on and on. The point is, we are very diverse group of people, all trying to gain enjoyment out of our hobby.

Hopefully, we can in the immortal words of Rodney King "just get along", regardless of which ideology you suscribe to.

WayneW

You're right, but as I stated earlier, it can be a problem when one group is ignoring a person's goals and giving that person scientifically unsupportable advice. That's where the problem is, in my opinion. IE "if you have a (measurably) irritatingly bright speaker, you need a (supposedly) warm amp" - uh no, you need a speaker that isn't bright!!

In an earlier post I believe it was lunchmoney that discussed "crap". I don't see anyone advocating "crap" electronics but beyond that point I think it's in the interest of the average non audiophile looking to improve his/her system, to get well-supported, reasonable advice. That's all.

[waynew]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

You're right, but as I stated earlier, it can be a problem when one group is ignoring a person's goals and giving that person scientifically unsupportable advice. That's where the problem is, in my opinion. IE "if you have a (measurably) irritatingly bright speaker, you need a (supposedly) warm amp" - uh no, you need a speaker that isn't bright!!

In an earlier post I believe it was lunchmoney that discussed "crap". I don't see anyone advocating "crap" electronics but beyond that point I think it's in the interest of the average non audiophile looking to improve his/her system, to get well-supported, reasonable advice. That's all.

A very good point! I haven't seen much of that type of advice in this forum, I suspect that the advice would be to pad the tweeter down rather than buy a different amp, but I definitely take your point.

Regards,

WayneW

[djg]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

Various audiophile groups continuously fight for the hearts and minds of new, gullible forum members. Some of the stuff I read on others forums is sad. Join the wrong forum, end up spending money for nothing or worse than nothing.

[GranteedEV]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

A very good point! I haven't seen much of that type of advice in this forum,

That's why PE is a good forum and such contentious threads are rare and tame.

In general, my least favorite "audiophile" term is "synergy". The more I read that word on a forum, the less likely I am to ever return to it

[flatfinger]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

That's why PE is a good forum and such contentious threads are rare and tame.

Do you mean to say no one gets amped up about things ?:p

[djg]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

This is spirited, not contentious.

[jinjuku]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

You're right, but as I stated earlier, it can be a problem when one group is ignoring a person's goals and giving that person scientifically unsupportable advice. That's where the problem is, in my opinion. IE "if you have a (measurably) irritatingly bright speaker, you need a (supposedly) warm amp" - uh no, you need a speaker that isn't bright!!

LOL. I can't believe how many 'experts' I've seen recommend a $1000 amp to solve a $0.50 problem in the tweeter crossover.

[GranteedEV]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

LOL. I can't believe how many 'experts' I've seen recommend a $1000 amp to solve a $0.50 problem in the tweeter crossover.

50c? mills resistors would be at least $10 :D ;)

[generic]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

The difference was likely entirely in the room EQ.

Different methods of doing room EQ (and different mic placements for runs, etc.) lead to different transfer functions, which in turn lead to actual sonic differences.

Possibly, but that still makes it and modern gear that much better then older counter parts. Cheap EQs = better sound. I did setup the distance and pink noise match the speakers as best I could, but the newer unit with auto room setup and EQ was much nicer.

Overall, I also suspect that the Marantz is a slightly nicer unit as a whole. Using a c weighted rat shack db meter, the Onkyo The right front was 2db softer then the left front from the same distance. I don't know how common that is, but it was corrected in the AVRs setup. The thin Marantz is heavier too and probably made up of higher quality components and a better heat sink. From some of the reviews I've read, probably greatly under rated in power as well, but output and reference levels were not a concern for its use.

[GranteedEV]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

I've heard lots of stories about Onkyos using heavily voltage biased, class B biased amp sections.

I don't even bother with Onkyo, when brands like Yamaha and Marantz do a fine job at the same price, even if it means missing out on the latest new feature fad (what was it right now, receivers that stream music?).

[Face]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

I don't even bother with Onkyo, when brands like Yamaha and Marantz do a fine job at the same price, even if it means missing out on the latest new feature fad (what was it right now, receivers that stream music?).

Not true, Marantz's newest models has the same features available as Onkyo's(streaming, etc...).

[evilskillit]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

Amp collecting, like gun collecting may not be the most practical hobby, but it often is a symptom of speaker collecting. If nothing else it is probably a good idea to have a collection of a few good amps that have plenty of oomph and handle 4 ohms well for when we all start doing our active projects. If some of them happen to be fancy, cool. If not well then thats someone's prerogative as well.

I've got a Parasound that I quite like and intend to build some of my own eventually for fun too. But if I had spare money to blow or found a good deal on ebay I wouldn't be above trying some prosound amps or big name audiophole amps as well.

Having said that assuming your amp is in good working order and not malfunctioning and you've got speakers you still want to build and haven't run out of things to do with your money you're probably better served by getting an amp that fits reasonably in your budget and spending more money on building more speakers. :D

[mzisserson]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

Lets see... This one ended the last thread like this.

[Wolf]

Re: a bit OT. Is an 'audiophile' amp a waste of money?

Now - I have to go catch me a Marmot. I hear that the urine of a female Marmot, when applied to speaker wires, causes the "Rythm and Pace" of and amplifier to become more evident. It also cures warts, colds, and hiccoughs. I suspect that I may not enjoy this much!

Regards,

WayneW

Yeah- Marcy hasn't been supplying the masses as of late, has she? ;) Supernickmarmottman should be able to help you catch her...

Later,
Wolf