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  • #61
    Re: Best new midwoofer?

    Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
    Yes, I got your point each time it was made. I do not, however, have a driver I can send you for testing at this time. I never said the SB was better than the Scanspeak; I only asked if the SB was the best new woofer - meaning new stuff just coming out. I wasn't pursuing a contest, I was only trying to post some information on somenthing new. You may stick with the Scanspeak, that is fine with me.
    Maybe I'm taking this wrong, but your reply seems pretty snarky. The offer was out there for you, yes, but anyone else who was interested. Still is, too, guys. ;)
    Jeff, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I honestly thought you may have not seen or simply forgotten to reply to my posts.

    I didn't say you did said it was the best new midwoofer. I didn't intend to imply you did. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. The fact, however, is that no one else was offering a rebuttal driver and that made it seem like the answer to the question title was trending toward "yes". Given the context of the thread, I didn't see harm in (continually, yes, only to try to get discussion going) offering up the Scan. I may certainly sound like a fanboy of the Scan. I am, actually. Because the product put out is just that good. Regardless when a driver was made, if it is outdone by another driver, it needs to be noted.

    FWIW, I don't have the illuminator in a home system. It's actually in my car. I had considered the Satori when I first read about it and planned to use it if it were a good low end performer. It looked a lot like the illuminator line and I thought it held potential.... figured it'd be worth a shot. Then I saw it in VC Mag and realized it just doesn't beat the scan out so I decided there was no reason to swap.


    Another driver that really doesn't seem to get a whole lot of attention is the Usher 8945A. I believe Klippel analysis showed this to have a good bit of throw as well. It was tested at slighly different parameters than is the norm so I hesitate to post the value because it will be misinterpreted. Unfortunately, I can't locate the data myself, nor can I locate any other type of data (FR, HD, IMD, etc). Anyone here know much about it? I know it's not new, but again, if it bests the Satori, it should be open for discussion.




    Again, I wasn't looking to start a fight. I was adding to the discussion. Hopefully we can carry on.



    - Erin
    ErinsAudioCorner.com

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    • #62
      Re: Best new midwoofer?

      Originally posted by ErinH View Post
      Maybe I'm taking this wrong, but your reply seems pretty snarky. The offer was out there for you, yes, but anyone else who was interested. Still is, too, guys. ;)
      Jeff, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I honestly thought you may have not seen or simply forgotten to reply to my posts.

      I didn't say you did said it was the best new midwoofer. I didn't intend to imply you did. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. The fact, however, is that no one else was offering a rebuttal driver and that made it seem like the answer to the question title was trending toward "yes". Given the context of the thread, I didn't see harm in (continually, yes, only to try to get discussion going) offering up the Scan. I may certainly sound like a fanboy of the Scan. I am, actually. Because the product put out is just that good. Regardless when a driver was made, if it is outdone by another driver, it needs to be noted.

      FWIW, I don't have the illuminator in a home system. It's actually in my car. I had considered the Satori when I first read about it and planned to use it if it were a good low end performer. It looked a lot like the illuminator line and I thought it held potential.... figured it'd be worth a shot. Then I saw it in VC Mag and realized it just doesn't beat the scan out so I decided there was no reason to swap.


      Another driver that really doesn't seem to get a whole lot of attention is the Usher 8945A. I believe Klippel analysis showed this to have a good bit of throw as well. It was tested at slighly different parameters than is the norm so I hesitate to post the value because it will be misinterpreted. Unfortunately, I can't locate the data myself, nor can I locate any other type of data (FR, HD, IMD, etc). Anyone here know much about it? I know it's not new, but again, if it bests the Satori, it should be open for discussion.




      Again, I wasn't looking to start a fight. I was adding to the discussion. Hopefully we can carry on.



      - Erin
      I wasn't looking for one either, Erin, nor was I trying to be snarky, nor did I put my text in bold like you show above. I was only responding because you kept asking - to let you know I didn't have one to send to you. Since I was the only person here who mentioned I was working with one I guess I thought your offer was directed to me. Sorry. You are welcome to love the Scanspeak driver. It's a great woofer. I never compared the SB to it or anything else. I was just trying to share some information on a new driver. And, like I said, I wasn't looking for a contest either, but I certainly got the impression you were turning it into one. You're welcome to, it's a public board, but I didn't feel I needed to personally respond to everything that is said. I know you can't accurately pick up someone's "tone" in a written post but I really wasn't being "snarky".
      Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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      • #63
        Re: Best new midwoofer?

        Point taken. Sorry for the big clusterf*ck. ;)

        Jeff, if you're interested, I can remove my scan illuminators for you to take for a spin. I know you're probably like me: all set and up to your ears. But, the offer is there just so you can try 'em out.


        Take care,
        Erin
        ErinsAudioCorner.com

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Best new midwoofer?

          Usher 8945P




          Usher 8945A




          The 8948A performs even better than the 8945A.

          Truly some of the finest performing midwoofers on the planet.

          But, they're NOT NEW. ;)
          R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
          Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

          95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
          "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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          • #65
            Re: Best new midwoofer?

            Originally posted by DDF View Post
            Jeff,

            Bill's an experienced old hand at measurement gear but it doesn't make him an expert in resonance audibility. Even his comment was a generic and extremely well known trait. That was trotting out a famous name to "prove a point", I think enough said there.

            Definitely the audibility is related to the BW. Judging by the distortion plot, that's a pretty broad bandwidth notch right in a frequency range where the ear is very acute.

            I've long been an advocate of not necessarily making on-axis ruler flat by equing to the exact diffraction signature just at one point in space. But this isn't diffraction. There is nothing to indicate that this dip is "filled in" off axis.

            Take it FWIW, my experience is that drivers that inherently radiate significantly different signatures at different axes, and not due to diffraction, result in less transparent sound that are very hard to voice.

            I know Lynn Olson's posted the same. YMMV

            Dave

            Here was my on and off-axis measurement in case you didn't catch it:


            I agree that there is something there. And if may be audible. I have my reservations on that judgment at this time, but I also said I wanted to investigate it a little more thorougly too. The CSD clearly shows a ridge there that lasts a considerable length of time. So, something is ringing.

            I didn't mean to imply that diffraction was the only thing that changes with axis, only that it was an example. I know that dispersion, phase cancellations in the cone/surround, etc. can cause this too. What I meant by these being acoustical is that all of these are related to wavelength and off-axis angle, where, on the other hand, the mechanical issues tend to be locked in no matter what angle you are at.

            This dip matches a peak in 2nd order distortion, but not in higher orders, which is a good thing - at least it's not as bad as it could be. In my mind that seems to exonerate the motor and point more to cone or spider or surround. I am really surprised that for such a stiff cone it doesn't exhibit any significant upper range break-up too. However, I agree that this is in a sensitive range and certainly warrants more investigation.

            Jeff
            Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Best new midwoofer?

              Usher 8945P




              Usher 8945A




              The 8948A performs even better than the 8945A.

              Truly some of the finest performing midwoofers on the planet.

              But, they're NOT NEW. ;)
              I agree Ushers really are the best buys in terms of performance for the dollar, especially in upper midrange distortion. The 8945P is state of the art. And I have been a big proponent of their tweeters for a long time.
              Last edited by Jeff B.; 11-26-2011, 11:54 AM. Reason: oops
              Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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              • #67
                Re: Best new midwoofer?

                Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                I didn't mean to imply that diffraction was the only thing that changes with axis, only that it was an example. I know that dispersion, phase cancellations in the cone/surround, etc. can cause this too. What I meant by these being acoustical is that all of these are related to wavelength and off-axis angle, where, on the other hand, the mechanical issues tend to be locked in no matter what angle you are at.
                Please don't misunderstand me, I was trying to make the following observation. When diffraction shows a dip at one frequency on one axis, it often shows a peak at that frequency somewhere off axis. If the xover eqs out the diffraction dip, it will often sound too hot at those frequencies in a reasonably live and not overly large room. So IME its usually best to eq it only partially on the listening axis.

                However, for a driver caused anomaly my experience has been different. As shown here, the dip doesn't result in a peak (unless maybe its at other angles?) so its perhaps less benign than diffraction caused dips. And my experience has been that drivers that radiate inherently different responses like this in multiple directions are extremely hard to voice to neutrality (much harder than for diffraction caused response effects), at least in my listening room (somewhat live, not that big).

                Dave

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                • #68
                  Re: Best new midwoofer?

                  Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                  I was just trying to share some information on a new driver. And, like I said, I wasn't looking for a contest either, but I certainly got the impression you were turning it into one.
                  Considering the title of this thread, I can't blame him.
                  "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                  http://www.diy-ny.com/

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                  • #69
                    Re: Best new midwoofer?

                    Originally posted by Face View Post
                    Considering the title of this thread, I can't blame him.
                    I was focusing on the word "new", but I get the point.
                    Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                    • #70
                      Re: Best new midwoofer?

                      Usher 8945P




                      Usher 8945A




                      The 8948A performs even better than the 8945A.

                      Truly some of the finest performing midwoofers on the planet.

                      But, they're NOT NEW. ;)

                      Have you got data from Usher 8948A? I am allmost pulling the trigger but usher is not so cheap here in Europe. 2 pcs 370$ with Freight.

                      But that's way it goes. Almost everything costs more here except Visaton and Fountek.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Best new midwoofer?

                        Originally posted by Nassander View Post
                        Have you got data from Usher 8948A? I am allmost pulling the trigger but usher is not so cheap here in Europe. 2 pcs 370$ with Freight.

                        But that's way it goes. Almost everything costs more here except Visaton and Fountek.
                        Usher's data on them is very good.

                        One thing that you should know is that the 8948A is used in their flagship 7" monitors, which tells you what driver Usher puts at the top of their list.
                        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Best new midwoofer?

                          Usher's data on them is very good.

                          One thing that you should know is that the 8948A is used in their flagship 7" monitors, which tells you what driver Usher puts at the top of their list.
                          Well, i know that. What i would like to know is real T/S parameters. I don't want end up using revelator 18W/8531G00 which is so out of specs.

                          Do you think that usher is really worth the money? European money?

                          BTW i like your bysantiums. I wish i could hear them sometime.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Best new midwoofer?

                            Originally posted by Nassander View Post
                            Well, i know that. What i would like to know is real T/S parameters. I don't want end up using revelator 18W/8531G00 which is so out of specs.

                            Do you think that usher is really worth the money? European money?

                            BTW i like your bysantiums. I wish i could hear them sometime.
                            Definitely worth the money. They are probably equal to the Scan Revelators in almost every way.

                            Thanks for the comment on the Byzantiums.

                            Come by for a visit next time you're in town. ;)
                            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Best new midwoofer?

                              Definitely worth the money. They are probably equal to the Scan Revelators in almost every way.

                              Thanks for the comment on the Byzantiums.

                              Come by for a visit next time you're in town. ;)

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Best new midwoofer?

                                I must say, I absolutely loved the midrange / vocals from the RS180's I used in the MTM I did for the recording studio monitors. The details of that speaker are posted in a tread down below.

                                On the other hand, my Mandolins, which use the SB17 were designed to reach 39Hz and yeild a very flat overall response. I thought they get quite well in the bass.

                                I bring these up since you already have these drivers.
                                Jeff
                                Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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