I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

[Jeff B.]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

This was my third DIY event. Still consider myself a speaker designing newb and attending these shows reinforces that...LOL. Joking aside, I always do try to be of some sort of help.....it's my way of "paying it forward" for all the valuable info I have gathered from you guys. This year was a bit difficult for me, to be honest. The slow wifi at the hotel made our video streaming effort challenging, but given the amount of virtual attendees, I think it was an overwhelming success.

In two show days, we had 322 visitors who checked in for some amount of time to the video stream. We had up to 30 people at one time interacting with us over the web and also chatting....it was....well...awesome. :D I understand some exhibitors might have been a bit uncomfortable knowing that they were "live" over the net, but I think it was a great thing...to be able to utilize today's technology to share this experience (even though the quality of the audio/video stream wasn't superb) with folks who couldn't make the show in person. I was so glad to have been a part of this effort and I think it should happen at future events.

On a side note (a very happy side note), I was the winner of the CSS MTM kit :D:D:D. It just so happened to be my fav speaker at the show. Jeff B, you are just phenomenal. To have won this kit makes me speechless. I will of course document the build and I have a feeling I have my first real set of reference speakers in hand. So stoked......no joke.

A huge thank you to everyone who made this show happen - you know who you are (Wolf and crew), and big props to all the presenters, vendors, sponsors, attendees.....you all rock!! Extra special thanks goes out to Mark & Joel @ Meniscus. Top-notch dudes for real.

It's pouring rain here like nobody's business....maybe a Chicago tornado in the works?? You tornado-alley folks be safe.

Bryan, you did an awesome job as the A/V guru. Thanks for all of the pics and setting up the streaming audio. It was kinda odd getting questions and requests from people who weren't physically present, but I guess that's the world we live in now. If you have any questions as you are working on that kit just let me know. I hope you will be as pleased with your set as you were with mine yesterday. You will find that they, and every other speaker there, will likely sound even better in your own room than they did in that conference room. These conference rooms always give us a weird midbass bloat. Thanks again for all of the hard work. I could tell you were really working your tail off at times, I hope you got a chance to sit an enjoy things too.

My thanls to Wolf, Rory, Matt, Mark& Joel, and the rest who put everything together. I roll in on the second day and have fun, but they're working hard to pull this thing off. Kudos to job well done.

[mikejennens]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

I'm sitting in the Ft Wayne airport waiting for my flight kind of sad the show is in the past. Thanks to all who worked to make this show a success: Ben, Matt, Rory, and Brian. Thanks for entertaining my questions as well. It ws great to meet so many folks too: Chuck (isaeagle), Dave P, Dan P, Jeff B, JFallow, and many others. This forum has grown into a great, friendly, helpful, warm, etc. community. It's really great to be a part of such a great group that shares an interest in this hobby. Thanks again to all who were a part of this weekend. One of the highlights of the year for me!
Mike

[[email protected]]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

why did we not start a new thread for this. i was not aware of the streaming. dissapointed for sure. some very nice looking speakers this year.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

It was a great event. I sold a few things, bought more, won a PAIR of the new 4ohm lab12's!!! Mike and Eric it was great meeting you guys for the first time. And as always seeing the now so many familiar faces. I got to really solidify some contacts this year. Don't think I will try to do so many projects next time as I just ran myself ragged trying to do to much in a short amount of time.

I'll give my final thoughts on the designs in a couple of days, but will say that I was very impressed with wolf's trichotomy and stance (once he was able to get them repaired) and Jeffs 2way with the SB drivers and TP cross. I'm not sure that I could actaully hear a difference because of the crossover, but the overall sound and presence of them was stunning.

[Paul K.]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

I had a great time as usual. BIG thanks to Wolf for setting up and hosting this event, and to Rory and Brian for their large efforts in helping Wolf run the show. Also thanks to the sponsors; I had to leave before door prizes were drawn, unfortunately. Special thanks to Shawn for his nice personal comments after I played the Cavatinas Saturday, as well as Brian's opinion on their sound Friday night. Lots of good and great sounding speakers. My favorite was Dan Neubecker's latest creation; drop-dead gorgeous looks with a big and effortless sound.
Paul

[greywarden]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

This is Dan's unreal-looking and great sounding build. A Lexan waveguide that Dave P. has been working on looks super cool. TC sounds woofer and BG mid....Hope I caught those correctly.

Wow, I want those.

[Wolf]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

How were the red speakers? The ones with the DQ25 tweeter and TB woofers.

That's the TB 25-1719, not the DQ25, and those are Rory's 'Firestorms' in their final version.

They're nice.
Wolf

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):

1) Dan Neubecker's unnamed project (I proposed 'Aspen'): These utterly ran away with the show. The combination of a waveguide-loaded electrodynamic tweeter with the planar mid worked surprisingly well, with no discernible discontinuities. Bass from the TC-Sounds woofer went deep with weight and authority at all volume levels, and the Neo10 planar mid was sublimely realistic. Overall, the speaker was capable not only of a very accurate yet listenable performance, but also of creating an almost tactile experience across the entire frequency range. A second listening session with peak levels of 95 dB at the seats led to more superlatives: spectacular and thrilling. I had topped out the volume range on the preamp before ever reaching the limits of the speakers (due to pro audio amps having lower voltage sensitivity than high-end hi-fi gear), and the sound was never harsh or piercing, just unbelievably loud and clean with no shift in tonal character. If these speakers were to be offered for sale to high-end clientele, they could command a price between $65,000 and $80,000 for the pair, and possibly still be called a 'bargain' in that market at those prices. Dan is at the top of his game, and doing spectacular work. There were only a couple flaws in the painted finish that I could find anywhere on the enclosure, so if the work had been done by a professional paint shop, these would have been ready for the showroom floor. Also, a more glossy finish on the laminated plywood baffles would have been very cool to see, and the woofers could have stood to be flush-mounted to add the last bit of polish. I'm not sure if a conversion varnish applied by HVLP would have done the trick to achieve the high gloss on the baffles. Also, I'm not sure how this could have been avoided, but there were the smallest of hairline cracks in the acrylic waveguide material around the mounting screws. Perhaps using less torque would have been the answer, and I don't recall if the screws were countersunk, but pan heads would be preferable for avoiding the cracking. Suggestions aside, I don't mean in any way to detract from the awesome achievement that this design truly is. Those would only be my suggestions if this design were to be mass produced and offered as a commercial product.

2) Jeff Bagby's SB Satori transient-perfect design: While not as visually impressive and without the same air-moving ability as Dan's project, the Satori project (unnamed, but using drivers from the upcoming SB Acoustics Satori product line) was supremely coherent from top to bottom and had surprising bass weight and impact. Without seeing the anechoic simulation curves, I can't comment on how linear the in-room bass response was, but I think these could have been further improved by a lower enclosure tuning (so the TS model would show a gradual bottom end roll-off to complement the rise in room gain of most rooms at lower frequencies) - this would have helped prevent some of the deep-bass waffling of the woofer cones by overdamping the alignment a bit. The new SB Satori dimple-dome tweeter sounded very good, though we were told these were not the final tweeters and they were still cooking. I think the aluminum faceplate as displayed in this project could allow a high-quality but lower-priced offering just below the market positioning of the Satori tweeter, so I hope we'll see them in some form. While I don't know how well the angled baffles would translate to a mass-produced kit enclosure, I think that a kit with unfinished enclosures would be a great product for a company like Meniscus to carry.

3) The CSS Triton kit by Jeff Bagby really sounded superb. The very low distortion of the drivers created a very natural and un-forced sound, without any excessive 'focus' or 'strain' that can come from driver distortion when pushed at these levels to fill a room of this size. Detail was excellent without seeming artificially-enhanced in any way. These drivers really deserve an excellent enclosure, but I think the enclosures that were presented had some slight panel resonance issues that were only particularly noticeable because everything else was so well-done. I think if this kit were to be offered as a floorstander, a transmission-line alignment should be experimented with (instead of a big vented enclosure). Also, the CSS VWR125X drivers look good, but I think they would have looked even better with a dust cap of the same material as the cone, instead of the copper-colored aluminum former cap. From the reports I heard, it was difficult to integrate the VWR125X because of the zippy top end resonance contributed by the former cap which continued to leak into the treble response of the system until it was cut by about 80 dB in the crossover network. The LD25X tweeter was a brilliant gem of a driver, and I feel my interest in this driver was not unwarranted. I probably had better order my pair before they go out of stock. Jeff's fabulous crossover work was in evidence, because the crossover point was undetectable. I never felt the desire to comment, "Oh, there go the midbasses," or "there go the tweeters".

Other honorable mentions:

Wolf's "Stances" had real purity in the midbass and midrange, thanks to their overbuilt enclosures. You can't go crazy with the volume knob when running these, as Ben, Matt, and I learned on the first morning before anyone else had arrived. But with PE's excellent fast shipping to surrounding states, we were able to order replacement drivers by 10 AM on Friday morning and have them by the early afternoon on Saturday, allowing us to audition these speakers and hear their strengths. The Beston RT003C round ribbon tweeters were skillfully integrated and didn't really call attention to themselves other than the overall tonal balance being the smallest smidge on the bright side. Ben and I tend to have very different ideas when it comes to the cosmetic design and finishing of our projects, and when I heard his plans and color selections for painting these, I realized this was still very true, but I've still got lots of respect for Ben as a prolific and skilled designer.

Bryan Keane's build of Paul Carmody's "Speedsters" remained true to the original demo last year in every way. Paul's reputation as a knowledgeable and creative crossover designer is well-earned, because his designs are consistently excellent. Though not without their limits in the lowest bass, the Speedsters remain one of the best designs available for the DIYer for nearfield listening or modest-sized listening spaces with mid-powered solid state amplification. (100W or so would be plenty in most rooms.) Between the Speedsters and Paul K's Cavatinas, I felt I was beginning to catch 'ribbon fever' at this show. Sadly (thankfully?) I didn't walk away with the pair of Fountek NeoX 1.0 ribbon tweeters that were a door prize.

I think overall this show was more fun than last year's (which was my first InDIYana), and the format was more refined. Still, it was a bummer that on Saturday we didn't get all the way through the roster of projects that were in attendance, though all of the projects that we didn't hear on Friday got a chance to be auditioned on Saturday. I'm thankful for all the feedback I've received on my own design, the Firestorms, between last year's InDIYana (when they debuted) and this year's (when they were shown in their final version, with a good reaction) which allowed my design to be as successful as it has. If you live near enough to drive the distance in a day, you ought to try to attend this show with your project. The overall feel of the show is casual, but refreshingly focused on the listening.

[Wolf]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

A look at Rory's RTA setup - we are averaging around 80db....hitting close to 90db at times.

Actually- that is my OmniMic, and it's Rory's laptop; using the RTA function and Pink noise.

Later,
Wolf

[Jeff B.]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):


2) Jeff Bagby's SB Satori transient-perfect design: While not as visually impressive and without the same air-moving ability as Dan's project, the Satori project (unnamed, but using drivers from the upcoming SB Acoustics Satori product line) was supremely coherent from top to bottom and had surprising bass weight and impact. Without seeing the anechoic simulation curves, I can't comment on how linear the in-room bass response was, but I think these could have been further improved by a lower enclosure tuning (so the TS model would show a gradual bottom end roll-off to complement the rise in room gain of most rooms at lower frequencies) - this would have helped prevent some of the deep-bass waffling of the woofer cones by overdamping the alignment a bit. The new SB Satori dimple-dome tweeter sounded very good, though we were told these were not the final tweeters and they were still cooking. I think the aluminum faceplate as displayed in this project could allow a high-quality but lower-priced offering just below the market positioning of the Satori tweeter, so I hope we'll see them in some form. While I don't know how well the angled baffles would translate to a mass-produced kit enclosure, I think that a kit with unfinished enclosures would be a great product for a company like Meniscus to carry.

Not unnamed. They are called "Kairos", a Biblical Greek word, that among other things, means "perfect timing". It seemed to convey what I was trying to capture with the speaker.

The tweeter I used is identical to the soon to be released production version except for the faceplate. It should not be a real expensive tweeter, but probably still a bit over $100. However, as the SB29 has received some rave reviews, consider this to be a high-end version of that tweeter - sort of an SB29 on steroids. Most of the changes are in the large tuned chamber and the heavy faceplate.

Regarding the cabinets. I beleive Mark made some jigs for the angled cabinet and can reproduce it if someone wants a pair without any real problems. If you want a basic MDF version I am sure he can deliver this.

As for the comments on the cabinet tuning: First, I think the room offered a real emphasis in the midbass. It always does. This helps a speaker like Wolf's "Stance" where the lift may match the roll-off nicely, but it may make some other speakers sound a bit bloated, especially vented ones. I heard this in other speakers throughout the day too. A lot of sealed speakers seemed to benefit from the room.

Second, about the tuning, it is already tuned to 37Hz, this is pretty low for 6.5" woofer in a .6 cu ft box. While it is true that tuning down around 29hz as was suggested would reduce some of the cone flutter that we saw on the percussive passages, it also begins to put the cabinet into passive radiator territory or it requires quite a bit larger of a box, neither of which seemed to be good design choices for this speaker and its intended application. A better option here is something I intended for the design as an option - to simply build it as a sealed speaker. In this box you have a Qtc of .78 and an F3 of 52Hz, which may be perfect for some rooms or when mating it with a subwoofer. However, I really do think bass tuning should be based on measured T/S parameters and not by just grabbing a number out of the air.

Thank you for the nice comments about the sound. I am glad you liked it enough to be on your list.

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):


3) The CSS Triton kit by Jeff Bagby really sounded superb. The very low distortion of the drivers created a very natural and un-forced sound, without any excessive 'focus' or 'strain' that can come from driver distortion when pushed at these levels to fill a room of this size. Detail was excellent without seeming artificially-enhanced in any way. These drivers really deserve an excellent enclosure, but I think the enclosures that were presented had some slight panel resonance issues that were only particularly noticeable because everything else was so well-done. I think if this kit were to be offered as a floorstander, a transmission-line alignment should be experimented with (instead of a big vented enclosure). Also, the CSS VWR125X drivers look good, but I think they would have looked even better with a dust cap of the same material as the cone, instead of the copper-colored aluminum former cap. From the reports I heard, it was difficult to integrate the VWR125X because of the zippy top end resonance contributed by the former cap which continued to leak into the treble response of the system until it was cut by about 80 dB in the crossover network. The LD25X tweeter was a brilliant gem of a driver, and I feel my interest in this driver was not unwarranted. I probably had better order my pair before they go out of stock. Jeff's fabulous crossover work was in evidence, because the crossover point was undetectable. I never felt the desire to comment, "Oh, there go the midbasses," or "there go the tweeters".

Thank you for the nice comments regarding my crossover and the integration of the drivers on the CSS "Tritons". However, I am bit bewildered by your comments on the cabinets.

I commented to Mark that I was extremely impressed by the quality of his cabinet work and how solid and perfectly cut everything was. This narrow MTM still has a 1.5" thick front baffle made of Baltic Birch and MDF, then inside there are extensive braces on the side panels. I can rap my knuckles on the cabinet and it sounds extremely dead. I have no idea what you heard or how you determined that it was a cabinet resonance. Granted, these are not lead-lined, filled with sand or even kitty litter, but they sure seem to be solid and generally resonance free from everything I can tell. I am afraid I am going to have to take exception to your conclusion on this one.

It really was not difficult to integrate the VWR126R with the tweeter, it just takes a more complex crossover because the driver naturally is a full-range unit with a lot more high frequency content to deal with, rather than a typical midwoofer that is rolling off on its own at a much lower frequency. I wouldn't say that the driver's 15khz peak really audibly leaked into the system's treble response, it still summed flat. I just went ahead and notched it since it only required adding a small cap to the crossover to do so, and that made it easy to fine tune the acoustic roll-off to match a 4th order response.

If someone doesn't want to use them full-range and doesn't like the copper colored dust cap I wonder how a few coats of a gloss black enamel on the cap would fare for mass-damping the resonance and changing the color at the same time?

Jeff B.

[fdieck]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

"However, I am bit bewildered by your comments on the cabinets."
J.B.

http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/jeffbagby/Tritons/?action=view&current=VWR126R-onBaffleDistortion.jpg&&newest=1#!oZZ24QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs109.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn70%2Fjeffbagby%2FTritons%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D100_3891.jpg%26newest%3D1

:eek:

[Wolf]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

[QUOTE]

RAT ROCKER THEME BUILDS

Alright- question:

Since the on-line subscribers were 'present', would it be fitting to post a poll for the Rat Rocker entries? I have 12 Dishonorable Mention papers, and 4 Honorable Mention papers to go from, and it was late enough in the day that they should have been viewable by those listening in.

That asked, we had 39 people in attendance by my count, of which only 4 were women. (mentioned only because we rarely see them at these things.)

Thanks to everyone that attended, the sponsors that supplied schwag, and to Rory for running sound and Matt for his iron weights and such, as it was a great fun 2 days. I feel the Rat-Rocker challenge inspired a lot of attendees, as there were 6 pair present, 7 if you count Bryan's. Hopefully I can think of another theme next year, or maybe continue this one. How about- 'outside of your comfort zone', enter something experimental! Could work I suppose....

I'll post my thoughts on things later,
Wolf

[dlneubec]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):

1) Dan Neubecker's unnamed project (I proposed 'Aspen'): These utterly ran away with the show. The combination of a waveguide-loaded electrodynamic tweeter with the planar mid worked surprisingly well, with no discernible discontinuities. Bass from the TC-Sounds woofer went deep with weight and authority at all volume levels, and the Neo10 planar mid was sublimely realistic. Overall, the speaker was capable not only of a very accurate yet listenable performance, but also of creating an almost tactile experience across the entire frequency range. A second listening session with peak levels of 95 dB at the seats led to more superlatives: spectacular and thrilling. I had topped out the volume range on the preamp before ever reaching the limits of the speakers (due to pro audio amps having lower voltage sensitivity than high-end hi-fi gear), and the sound was never harsh or piercing, just unbelievably loud and clean with no shift in tonal character. If these speakers were to be offered for sale to high-end clientele, they could command a price between $65,000 and $80,000 for the pair, and possibly still be called a 'bargain' in that market at those prices. Dan is at the top of his game, and doing spectacular work. There were only a couple flaws in the painted finish that I could find anywhere on the enclosure, so if the work had been done by a professional paint shop, these would have been ready for the showroom floor. Also, a more glossy finish on the laminated plywood baffles would have been very cool to see, and the woofers could have stood to be flush-mounted to add the last bit of polish. I'm not sure if a conversion varnish applied by HVLP would have done the trick to achieve the high gloss on the baffles. Also, I'm not sure how this could have been avoided, but there were the smallest of hairline cracks in the acrylic waveguide material around the mounting screws. Perhaps using less torque would have been the answer, and I don't recall if the screws were countersunk, but pan heads would be preferable for avoiding the cracking. Suggestions aside, I don't mean in any way to detract from the awesome achievement that this design truly is. Those would only be my suggestions if this design were to be mass produced and offered as a commercial product..

Rory,

Thanks for the wonderful comments! I think we all aspire to be respected by our peers, so it is very rewarding when others appreciate your work. I'd have to think about going into the speaker business if I thought I could sell a few pairs a year at that price!

BTW, did you have a listen after I removed the acousta-stuff from the open back tunnels toward the end of the second session? I was just wondering if you preffered them with or without the extra stuffing.

You'll be glad to know that the finish is not complete. I need several coats still on the paint on a few panels and the wet sanding, buffing, etc are not yet complete. Also, the finish on the laminated baffles is not yet complete. I just ran out of time before the event this time.

The one drawback to Dave Pellegrene's waveguides is that they are only 1/8" thick, so you have to be very careful when you drill through them. That last bit as it goes through the plastic can cause fractures if you go just a little too fast. That's what happened on the one guide.

I appreciate the suggestions. I have a few months to bet them ready for MWAF, so hopefully I can resolve the remaining issues.

I do like the "Aspen" name. I'm open to any other suggestions anyone has. So far, the names I have on the list for consideration are:

Finale
Aerios
Omnius
Aspen

I'll be putting together a thread with more detials on the design, build pictures, etc. and what is coming in phase 2 of this project.

There were so many excellent designs and I wish I had taken notes so that I could recall which I was most impressed with. I do recall specifically that Jeff's TP design was a pretty special 2way. Ben's Stance sounded great, and so did a lot of others.

I also wish we had been able to get to all the speakers Saturday. I especially wanted to hear your revised Firestorm's and the little units that Matt brought.

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

(You'd think they would have figured out how to prevent double posting by now, but apparently not. See below.)

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

Not unnamed. They are called "Kairos", a Biblical Greek word, that among other things, means "perfect timing". It seemed to convey what I was trying to capture with the speaker.

...

Thank you for the nice comments regarding my crossover and the integration of the drivers on the CSS "Tritons". However, I am bit bewildered by your comments on the cabinets.

I commented to Mark that I was extremely impressed by the quality of his cabinet work and how solid and perfectly cut everything was. This narrow MTM still has a 1.5" thick front baffle made of Baltic Birch and MDF, then inside there are extensive braces on the side panels. I can rap my knuckles on the cabinet and it sounds extremely dead. I have no idea what you heard or how you determined that it was a cabinet resonance. Granted, these are not lead-lined, filled with sand or even kitty litter, but they sure seem to be solid and generally resonance free from everything I can tell. I am afraid I am going to have to take exception to your conclusion on this one.

...
Jeff B.

Sorry for forgetting the name of the Kairos. Since the mistake has already been made and responded to, I won't go back and correct my initial post, but I'll just note this as an erratum: the transient-perfect Satori project was not unnamed, as I originally wrote. I apologize for the error and meant no disrespect. In the past after shows, I've waited quite a while before posting my summary and have been last to the party after people have moved on to discussion of the next event, so I was hasty and this mistake was the result.

Regarding the Triton, I'm only reporting what I heard as best as I can describe and diagnose it. It may have been an internal standing wave, or it may have been a panel resonance, but I did notice a very minor box coloration in the midbass and lower midrange, in about the same frequency range where my Firestorm baffle also has a slightly noticeable resonance, so I inferred that it was probably also a panel resonance in the case of the Triton. I didn't put my ear to the box to see whether the resonance was being emitted from the panels themselves. I'm not trying to badmouth anybody's work, and I didn't know that Mark had built these; I'm just trying to be objective and say that I heard something. In my piece, I noted that the likely reason why I noticed this issue was because there weren't any other audible issues that could mask or distract my critical ear from it. I didn't mean that the Triton sounded like they were built in repurposed Kleenex boxes, just that the sound didn't seem perfectly 'boxless' to me.