I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

[dlneubec]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

I'm with Rory on these, Dan.

You pretty much trumped anything you've done before in fit, finish, and sound. And you steped it up into another echelon.

That's what I think is warranted- 'Echelon'.

Later,
Wolf

I like Echelon. Excellent! Keep the names coming.

Thanks for the nice comments also.

I didn't say much to anyone, but was very concerned about my voicing on these speakers. One because I had a very short time on them, just a few hours. Second, in Decemember I had an ear infection that quickly led to a ruptured eardrum (it actually popped when it ruptured!). I lost about 75% of the hearing in that ear for a time and it has not all come back yet. Also, I have a considerable increase of tinnitus in that ear as a result. Unfortunately, that was my good ear. As a child, this happened to me several times and as a result my other ear already had a considerable amount of high frequency loss. Now the good ear has as well.

I was very concerned about whether I could achieve a good balance with this speaker as a result. Feedback from guys like you, Rory and others, who I know have very discerning ears, helps dispel that concern. Thanks for the caps tips, BTW.

[Wolf]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

One more note: With a gathering like this with some real heavyweights in attendance and other good designs as well, I don't want to make it seem like anyone has fallen by the wayside. There were lots of good designs that were listenable and didn't seem to do much that was objectionable.

Agreed!

I also found a lot to like about Phil Bamberg's TMs, though I think they could have benefited from having a woofer tower underneath or a vented enclosure design. (They were sealed.) They had a real immediacy about them, with great transient 'snap'.

Not agreed. Where I was at in the room, I noticed that the tracks with more than one vocalist singing in harmony seemed to be blurry on his pair. They were just not highly defined, and another attendee thought the same thing as me. Other than that- I agree- vented or with woofers would've been better.

Later,
Wolf

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

One more note: With a gathering like this with some real heavyweights in attendance and other good designs as well, I don't want to make it seem like anyone has fallen by the wayside. There were lots of good designs that were listenable and didn't seem to do much that was objectionable. I also found a lot to like about Phil Bamberg's TMs, though I think they could have benefited from having a woofer tower underneath or a vented enclosure design. (They were sealed.) They had a real immediacy about them, with great transient 'snap'.

[Wolf]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

I'm with Rory on these, Dan.

You pretty much trumped anything you've done before in fit, finish, and sound. And you steped it up into another echelon.

That's what I think is warranted- 'Echelon'.

Later,
Wolf

[dougjohnson]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

I'll be putting together a thread with more detials on the design, build pictures, etc. and what is coming in phase 2 of this project.

Please. Please. Pretty Please.
Thanks,
Doug

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

Rory,

Thanks for the wonderful comments! I think we all aspire to be respected by our peers, so it is very rewarding when others appreciate your work. I'd have to think about going into the speaker business if I thought I could sell a few pairs a year at that price!

BTW, did you have a listen after I removed the acousta-stuff from the open back tunnels toward the end of the second session? I was just wondering if you preffered them with or without the extra stuffing.

The Kharma Grand Ceramique speakers (link) - $53,000/pr.

The Marten Coltrane go for $70,000, and the quad-ceramic-woofer Coltrane Momento (otherwise similar to the Coltrane) are $165,000. (See here.)

With inflation, the cost of quality manufacturing, and with the high end industry now focusing on super-rich clientele, these prices aren't unheard of, and the Aspen/Omnius/... are even better looking than the above speakers. And while they didn't do anything audibly wrong, and lots of things very audibly right, I suppose at this price level an obsessive amount of crossover tweaking wouldn't be a bad thing, so I wouldn't dissuade you from making any tweaks suggested by measurements or listening, even though I can't think of any I'd recommend. All the ingredients for a great commercial product are there. The only other thing I'd probably want to address in a commercial product would be to paint the little exposed ring of MDF around the tweeter dome where the waveguide couples to the tweeter. I'd paint that surface white to match the cabinet. (I really liked the off-white color choice, by the way. It complemented the baffle superbly.)

Those speakers were really great fun to listen to, especially on Nils Lofgren at 95 dB live-concert levels. Thanks for building and bringing them.

Another little bit to add, since we're discussing comparisons to commercial products: If I were to offer my Firestorms as a commercial product (with a higher-quality painted finish, of course), I think the market would support a price around $1800-$2200/pr. That's a fair chunk more than the Nola Contender, but the Firestorms are larger and go deeper in the bass. And I daresay the Tang Band tweeter is better.

[DjDisturbed]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

I Do Like The "aspen" Name. I'm Open To Any Other Suggestions Anyone Has. So Far, The Names I Have On The List For Consideration Are:

Finale
Aerios
Omnius
Aspen

Droids
They look like they could be stand-ins for a Stars Wars movie set.
Wish I could have been there , looks like it was a great turn out.

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

Not unnamed. They are called "Kairos", a Biblical Greek word, that among other things, means "perfect timing". It seemed to convey what I was trying to capture with the speaker.

...

Thank you for the nice comments regarding my crossover and the integration of the drivers on the CSS "Tritons". However, I am bit bewildered by your comments on the cabinets.

I commented to Mark that I was extremely impressed by the quality of his cabinet work and how solid and perfectly cut everything was. This narrow MTM still has a 1.5" thick front baffle made of Baltic Birch and MDF, then inside there are extensive braces on the side panels. I can rap my knuckles on the cabinet and it sounds extremely dead. I have no idea what you heard or how you determined that it was a cabinet resonance. Granted, these are not lead-lined, filled with sand or even kitty litter, but they sure seem to be solid and generally resonance free from everything I can tell. I am afraid I am going to have to take exception to your conclusion on this one.

...
Jeff B.

Sorry for forgetting the name of the Kairos. Since the mistake has already been made and responded to, I won't go back and correct my initial post, but I'll just note this as an erratum: the transient-perfect Satori project was not unnamed, as I originally wrote. I apologize for the error and meant no disrespect. In the past after shows, I've waited quite a while before posting my summary and have been last to the party after people have moved on to discussion of the next event, so I was hasty and this mistake was the result.

Regarding the Triton, I'm only reporting what I heard as best as I can describe and diagnose it. It may have been an internal standing wave, or it may have been a panel resonance, but I did notice a very minor box coloration in the midbass and lower midrange, in about the same frequency range where my Firestorm baffle also has a slightly noticeable resonance, so I inferred that it was probably also a panel resonance in the case of the Triton. I didn't put my ear to the box to see whether the resonance was being emitted from the panels themselves. I'm not trying to badmouth anybody's work, and I didn't know that Mark had built these; I'm just trying to be objective and say that I heard something. In my piece, I noted that the likely reason why I noticed this issue was because there weren't any other audible issues that could mask or distract my critical ear from it. I didn't mean that the Triton sounded like they were built in repurposed Kleenex boxes, just that the sound didn't seem perfectly 'boxless' to me.

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

(You'd think they would have figured out how to prevent double posting by now, but apparently not. See below.)

[dlneubec]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):

1) Dan Neubecker's unnamed project (I proposed 'Aspen'): These utterly ran away with the show. The combination of a waveguide-loaded electrodynamic tweeter with the planar mid worked surprisingly well, with no discernible discontinuities. Bass from the TC-Sounds woofer went deep with weight and authority at all volume levels, and the Neo10 planar mid was sublimely realistic. Overall, the speaker was capable not only of a very accurate yet listenable performance, but also of creating an almost tactile experience across the entire frequency range. A second listening session with peak levels of 95 dB at the seats led to more superlatives: spectacular and thrilling. I had topped out the volume range on the preamp before ever reaching the limits of the speakers (due to pro audio amps having lower voltage sensitivity than high-end hi-fi gear), and the sound was never harsh or piercing, just unbelievably loud and clean with no shift in tonal character. If these speakers were to be offered for sale to high-end clientele, they could command a price between $65,000 and $80,000 for the pair, and possibly still be called a 'bargain' in that market at those prices. Dan is at the top of his game, and doing spectacular work. There were only a couple flaws in the painted finish that I could find anywhere on the enclosure, so if the work had been done by a professional paint shop, these would have been ready for the showroom floor. Also, a more glossy finish on the laminated plywood baffles would have been very cool to see, and the woofers could have stood to be flush-mounted to add the last bit of polish. I'm not sure if a conversion varnish applied by HVLP would have done the trick to achieve the high gloss on the baffles. Also, I'm not sure how this could have been avoided, but there were the smallest of hairline cracks in the acrylic waveguide material around the mounting screws. Perhaps using less torque would have been the answer, and I don't recall if the screws were countersunk, but pan heads would be preferable for avoiding the cracking. Suggestions aside, I don't mean in any way to detract from the awesome achievement that this design truly is. Those would only be my suggestions if this design were to be mass produced and offered as a commercial product..

Rory,

Thanks for the wonderful comments! I think we all aspire to be respected by our peers, so it is very rewarding when others appreciate your work. I'd have to think about going into the speaker business if I thought I could sell a few pairs a year at that price!

BTW, did you have a listen after I removed the acousta-stuff from the open back tunnels toward the end of the second session? I was just wondering if you preffered them with or without the extra stuffing.

You'll be glad to know that the finish is not complete. I need several coats still on the paint on a few panels and the wet sanding, buffing, etc are not yet complete. Also, the finish on the laminated baffles is not yet complete. I just ran out of time before the event this time.

The one drawback to Dave Pellegrene's waveguides is that they are only 1/8" thick, so you have to be very careful when you drill through them. That last bit as it goes through the plastic can cause fractures if you go just a little too fast. That's what happened on the one guide.

I appreciate the suggestions. I have a few months to bet them ready for MWAF, so hopefully I can resolve the remaining issues.

I do like the "Aspen" name. I'm open to any other suggestions anyone has. So far, the names I have on the list for consideration are:

Finale
Aerios
Omnius
Aspen

I'll be putting together a thread with more detials on the design, build pictures, etc. and what is coming in phase 2 of this project.

There were so many excellent designs and I wish I had taken notes so that I could recall which I was most impressed with. I do recall specifically that Jeff's TP design was a pretty special 2way. Ben's Stance sounded great, and so did a lot of others.

I also wish we had been able to get to all the speakers Saturday. I especially wanted to hear your revised Firestorm's and the little units that Matt brought.

[Wolf]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

[QUOTE]

RAT ROCKER THEME BUILDS

Alright- question:

Since the on-line subscribers were 'present', would it be fitting to post a poll for the Rat Rocker entries? I have 12 Dishonorable Mention papers, and 4 Honorable Mention papers to go from, and it was late enough in the day that they should have been viewable by those listening in.

That asked, we had 39 people in attendance by my count, of which only 4 were women. (mentioned only because we rarely see them at these things.)

Thanks to everyone that attended, the sponsors that supplied schwag, and to Rory for running sound and Matt for his iron weights and such, as it was a great fun 2 days. I feel the Rat-Rocker challenge inspired a lot of attendees, as there were 6 pair present, 7 if you count Bryan's. Hopefully I can think of another theme next year, or maybe continue this one. How about- 'outside of your comfort zone', enter something experimental! Could work I suppose....

I'll post my thoughts on things later,
Wolf

[fdieck]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

"However, I am bit bewildered by your comments on the cabinets."
J.B.

http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/jeffbagby/Tritons/?action=view&current=VWR126R-onBaffleDistortion.jpg&&newest=1#!oZZ24QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs109.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn70%2Fjeffbagby%2FTritons%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D100_3891.jpg%26newest%3D1

:eek:

[Jeff B.]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):


2) Jeff Bagby's SB Satori transient-perfect design: While not as visually impressive and without the same air-moving ability as Dan's project, the Satori project (unnamed, but using drivers from the upcoming SB Acoustics Satori product line) was supremely coherent from top to bottom and had surprising bass weight and impact. Without seeing the anechoic simulation curves, I can't comment on how linear the in-room bass response was, but I think these could have been further improved by a lower enclosure tuning (so the TS model would show a gradual bottom end roll-off to complement the rise in room gain of most rooms at lower frequencies) - this would have helped prevent some of the deep-bass waffling of the woofer cones by overdamping the alignment a bit. The new SB Satori dimple-dome tweeter sounded very good, though we were told these were not the final tweeters and they were still cooking. I think the aluminum faceplate as displayed in this project could allow a high-quality but lower-priced offering just below the market positioning of the Satori tweeter, so I hope we'll see them in some form. While I don't know how well the angled baffles would translate to a mass-produced kit enclosure, I think that a kit with unfinished enclosures would be a great product for a company like Meniscus to carry.

Not unnamed. They are called "Kairos", a Biblical Greek word, that among other things, means "perfect timing". It seemed to convey what I was trying to capture with the speaker.

The tweeter I used is identical to the soon to be released production version except for the faceplate. It should not be a real expensive tweeter, but probably still a bit over $100. However, as the SB29 has received some rave reviews, consider this to be a high-end version of that tweeter - sort of an SB29 on steroids. Most of the changes are in the large tuned chamber and the heavy faceplate.

Regarding the cabinets. I beleive Mark made some jigs for the angled cabinet and can reproduce it if someone wants a pair without any real problems. If you want a basic MDF version I am sure he can deliver this.

As for the comments on the cabinet tuning: First, I think the room offered a real emphasis in the midbass. It always does. This helps a speaker like Wolf's "Stance" where the lift may match the roll-off nicely, but it may make some other speakers sound a bit bloated, especially vented ones. I heard this in other speakers throughout the day too. A lot of sealed speakers seemed to benefit from the room.

Second, about the tuning, it is already tuned to 37Hz, this is pretty low for 6.5" woofer in a .6 cu ft box. While it is true that tuning down around 29hz as was suggested would reduce some of the cone flutter that we saw on the percussive passages, it also begins to put the cabinet into passive radiator territory or it requires quite a bit larger of a box, neither of which seemed to be good design choices for this speaker and its intended application. A better option here is something I intended for the design as an option - to simply build it as a sealed speaker. In this box you have a Qtc of .78 and an F3 of 52Hz, which may be perfect for some rooms or when mating it with a subwoofer. However, I really do think bass tuning should be based on measured T/S parameters and not by just grabbing a number out of the air.

Thank you for the nice comments about the sound. I am glad you liked it enough to be on your list.

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):


3) The CSS Triton kit by Jeff Bagby really sounded superb. The very low distortion of the drivers created a very natural and un-forced sound, without any excessive 'focus' or 'strain' that can come from driver distortion when pushed at these levels to fill a room of this size. Detail was excellent without seeming artificially-enhanced in any way. These drivers really deserve an excellent enclosure, but I think the enclosures that were presented had some slight panel resonance issues that were only particularly noticeable because everything else was so well-done. I think if this kit were to be offered as a floorstander, a transmission-line alignment should be experimented with (instead of a big vented enclosure). Also, the CSS VWR125X drivers look good, but I think they would have looked even better with a dust cap of the same material as the cone, instead of the copper-colored aluminum former cap. From the reports I heard, it was difficult to integrate the VWR125X because of the zippy top end resonance contributed by the former cap which continued to leak into the treble response of the system until it was cut by about 80 dB in the crossover network. The LD25X tweeter was a brilliant gem of a driver, and I feel my interest in this driver was not unwarranted. I probably had better order my pair before they go out of stock. Jeff's fabulous crossover work was in evidence, because the crossover point was undetectable. I never felt the desire to comment, "Oh, there go the midbasses," or "there go the tweeters".

Thank you for the nice comments regarding my crossover and the integration of the drivers on the CSS "Tritons". However, I am bit bewildered by your comments on the cabinets.

I commented to Mark that I was extremely impressed by the quality of his cabinet work and how solid and perfectly cut everything was. This narrow MTM still has a 1.5" thick front baffle made of Baltic Birch and MDF, then inside there are extensive braces on the side panels. I can rap my knuckles on the cabinet and it sounds extremely dead. I have no idea what you heard or how you determined that it was a cabinet resonance. Granted, these are not lead-lined, filled with sand or even kitty litter, but they sure seem to be solid and generally resonance free from everything I can tell. I am afraid I am going to have to take exception to your conclusion on this one.

It really was not difficult to integrate the VWR126R with the tweeter, it just takes a more complex crossover because the driver naturally is a full-range unit with a lot more high frequency content to deal with, rather than a typical midwoofer that is rolling off on its own at a much lower frequency. I wouldn't say that the driver's 15khz peak really audibly leaked into the system's treble response, it still summed flat. I just went ahead and notched it since it only required adding a small cap to the crossover to do so, and that made it easy to fine tune the acoustic roll-off to match a 4th order response.

If someone doesn't want to use them full-range and doesn't like the copper colored dust cap I wonder how a few coats of a gloss black enamel on the cap would fare for mass-damping the resonance and changing the color at the same time?

Jeff B.

[Wolf]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

A look at Rory's RTA setup - we are averaging around 80db....hitting close to 90db at times.

Actually- that is my OmniMic, and it's Rory's laptop; using the RTA function and Pink noise.

Later,
Wolf

[Taterworks]

Re: I know it is early, but.... InDIYana??

My favorites of the day (in order of favoritism):

1) Dan Neubecker's unnamed project (I proposed 'Aspen'): These utterly ran away with the show. The combination of a waveguide-loaded electrodynamic tweeter with the planar mid worked surprisingly well, with no discernible discontinuities. Bass from the TC-Sounds woofer went deep with weight and authority at all volume levels, and the Neo10 planar mid was sublimely realistic. Overall, the speaker was capable not only of a very accurate yet listenable performance, but also of creating an almost tactile experience across the entire frequency range. A second listening session with peak levels of 95 dB at the seats led to more superlatives: spectacular and thrilling. I had topped out the volume range on the preamp before ever reaching the limits of the speakers (due to pro audio amps having lower voltage sensitivity than high-end hi-fi gear), and the sound was never harsh or piercing, just unbelievably loud and clean with no shift in tonal character. If these speakers were to be offered for sale to high-end clientele, they could command a price between $65,000 and $80,000 for the pair, and possibly still be called a 'bargain' in that market at those prices. Dan is at the top of his game, and doing spectacular work. There were only a couple flaws in the painted finish that I could find anywhere on the enclosure, so if the work had been done by a professional paint shop, these would have been ready for the showroom floor. Also, a more glossy finish on the laminated plywood baffles would have been very cool to see, and the woofers could have stood to be flush-mounted to add the last bit of polish. I'm not sure if a conversion varnish applied by HVLP would have done the trick to achieve the high gloss on the baffles. Also, I'm not sure how this could have been avoided, but there were the smallest of hairline cracks in the acrylic waveguide material around the mounting screws. Perhaps using less torque would have been the answer, and I don't recall if the screws were countersunk, but pan heads would be preferable for avoiding the cracking. Suggestions aside, I don't mean in any way to detract from the awesome achievement that this design truly is. Those would only be my suggestions if this design were to be mass produced and offered as a commercial product.

2) Jeff Bagby's SB Satori transient-perfect design: While not as visually impressive and without the same air-moving ability as Dan's project, the Satori project (unnamed, but using drivers from the upcoming SB Acoustics Satori product line) was supremely coherent from top to bottom and had surprising bass weight and impact. Without seeing the anechoic simulation curves, I can't comment on how linear the in-room bass response was, but I think these could have been further improved by a lower enclosure tuning (so the TS model would show a gradual bottom end roll-off to complement the rise in room gain of most rooms at lower frequencies) - this would have helped prevent some of the deep-bass waffling of the woofer cones by overdamping the alignment a bit. The new SB Satori dimple-dome tweeter sounded very good, though we were told these were not the final tweeters and they were still cooking. I think the aluminum faceplate as displayed in this project could allow a high-quality but lower-priced offering just below the market positioning of the Satori tweeter, so I hope we'll see them in some form. While I don't know how well the angled baffles would translate to a mass-produced kit enclosure, I think that a kit with unfinished enclosures would be a great product for a company like Meniscus to carry.

3) The CSS Triton kit by Jeff Bagby really sounded superb. The very low distortion of the drivers created a very natural and un-forced sound, without any excessive 'focus' or 'strain' that can come from driver distortion when pushed at these levels to fill a room of this size. Detail was excellent without seeming artificially-enhanced in any way. These drivers really deserve an excellent enclosure, but I think the enclosures that were presented had some slight panel resonance issues that were only particularly noticeable because everything else was so well-done. I think if this kit were to be offered as a floorstander, a transmission-line alignment should be experimented with (instead of a big vented enclosure). Also, the CSS VWR125X drivers look good, but I think they would have looked even better with a dust cap of the same material as the cone, instead of the copper-colored aluminum former cap. From the reports I heard, it was difficult to integrate the VWR125X because of the zippy top end resonance contributed by the former cap which continued to leak into the treble response of the system until it was cut by about 80 dB in the crossover network. The LD25X tweeter was a brilliant gem of a driver, and I feel my interest in this driver was not unwarranted. I probably had better order my pair before they go out of stock. Jeff's fabulous crossover work was in evidence, because the crossover point was undetectable. I never felt the desire to comment, "Oh, there go the midbasses," or "there go the tweeters".

Other honorable mentions:

Wolf's "Stances" had real purity in the midbass and midrange, thanks to their overbuilt enclosures. You can't go crazy with the volume knob when running these, as Ben, Matt, and I learned on the first morning before anyone else had arrived. But with PE's excellent fast shipping to surrounding states, we were able to order replacement drivers by 10 AM on Friday morning and have them by the early afternoon on Saturday, allowing us to audition these speakers and hear their strengths. The Beston RT003C round ribbon tweeters were skillfully integrated and didn't really call attention to themselves other than the overall tonal balance being the smallest smidge on the bright side. Ben and I tend to have very different ideas when it comes to the cosmetic design and finishing of our projects, and when I heard his plans and color selections for painting these, I realized this was still very true, but I've still got lots of respect for Ben as a prolific and skilled designer.

Bryan Keane's build of Paul Carmody's "Speedsters" remained true to the original demo last year in every way. Paul's reputation as a knowledgeable and creative crossover designer is well-earned, because his designs are consistently excellent. Though not without their limits in the lowest bass, the Speedsters remain one of the best designs available for the DIYer for nearfield listening or modest-sized listening spaces with mid-powered solid state amplification. (100W or so would be plenty in most rooms.) Between the Speedsters and Paul K's Cavatinas, I felt I was beginning to catch 'ribbon fever' at this show. Sadly (thankfully?) I didn't walk away with the pair of Fountek NeoX 1.0 ribbon tweeters that were a door prize.

I think overall this show was more fun than last year's (which was my first InDIYana), and the format was more refined. Still, it was a bummer that on Saturday we didn't get all the way through the roster of projects that were in attendance, though all of the projects that we didn't hear on Friday got a chance to be auditioned on Saturday. I'm thankful for all the feedback I've received on my own design, the Firestorms, between last year's InDIYana (when they debuted) and this year's (when they were shown in their final version, with a good reaction) which allowed my design to be as successful as it has. If you live near enough to drive the distance in a day, you ought to try to attend this show with your project. The overall feel of the show is casual, but refreshingly focused on the listening.