LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

[Dirk]

Hi Lou:

I was going to send this as a PM, but I figured maybe I'm not the only one jealous of your work. Either you are very good at taking forgiving photos OR you produce a lot of consistent results. I'm thinking it's the latter.

First off, do you shoot all of your cabinets, or do you occasionally hand-apply the finishes? I'm beginning to think that if I ever want a clean finish devoid of imperfections that I might as well give up on using brushes. I can occasionally do okay with an oil-based polyeurathane, but anything else? Forget it.

Secondly, do you cut all the driver recesses AFTER veneer is applied? Does this ever lead to extensive swearing and scrapped cabinets? I routed my first holes in a veneered cabinet recently. It was just for a port tube on the back, so I was feeling sassy and gave it a try. The end result was shockingly clean! However, I also know that the front baffle is where I commit most of my enclosure mistakes, so...

What's your preferred veneer backer? Paper, NBL/2-ply? If paper, is there a particular way you cut & assemble the cabinets to limit telegraphing?

Thanks for any advice. There's no doubt you're an inspiration to a lot of your fellow builders.

Regards,
Dirk

[LouC]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

Hi Lou:

I was going to send this as a PM, but I figured maybe I'm not the only one jealous of your work. Either you are very good at taking forgiving photos OR you produce a lot of consistent results. I'm thinking it's the latter.

You forgot PhotoShop! :D And flattering photography.

First off, do you shoot all of your cabinets, or do you occasionally hand-apply the finishes? I'm beginning to think that if I ever want a clean finish devoid of imperfections that I might as well give up on using brushes. I can occasionally do okay with an oil-based polyeurathane, but anything else? Forget it.

I seal/stain with dewaxed shellac (Bullseye seal coat) Usually diluted 1:1 with alcohol. I pretty much spray everything with waterbased acrylic lacquer. (Fuhr 380 but there are others. I think Deft Clear Wood Finish Waterbase is acrylic.) If I wind up with some overspray or nibs I sand down with a block and 600-1000 grit. Then do a quick wipe coat with finish diluted 20% with water. IMO, polyurethane is more trouble than it's worth. Great for table tops and floors. Whatever finish, make sure it "burns in" between coats (dissolves the prior coats)

When I do hand finish, I use a cotton pad (old tighty whities) swipe one coat in a single pass, let it dry (10-15 minutes out here) then repeat No brushes.

Secondly, do you cut all the driver recesses AFTER veneer is applied? Does this ever lead to extensive swearing and scrapped cabinets? I routed my first holes in a veneered cabinet recently. It was just for a port tube on the back, so I was feeling sassy and gave it a try. The end result was shockingly clean! However, I also know that the front baffle is where I commit most of my enclosure mistakes, so...

I do the the holes, veneer. Then Use a flush trim bit for the through hole, and a rabbeting bit for the recess. Blue tape helps. Touch up with magic marker. Keeping a slow bit speed on the rabbet minimizes tearout. For Oak and woods like it, I may even spray a couple coats before routing to help reduce tearout.

What's your preferred veneer backer? Paper, NBL/2-ply? If paper, is there a particular way you cut & assemble the cabinets to limit telegraphing?

Paper or NBL works equally fine. I prep the boxes as if I were painting, usually with 120 grit or so. Since I went to the Titan DX Contact Cement, a lot of issues have gone away. Never really had telegraphing issues that I noticed.

Thanks for any advice. There's no doubt you're an inspiration to a lot of your fellow builders.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

[tom_s]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

I know I'm not Lou and I don't have nearly as many builds under my belt, but wipe-on poly is a much improved product - IMO. I used to hate poly due to brush stokes and dust finding it's way into the finish. I have a really small basement shop with too many places for dust to hide. The wipe-on poly has been a real blessing. It's easy and fast to hit a box with a light coat, then sand lightly a few hours later, and wipe on another coat....and repeat. Not perfect, but no brush strokes and the dust issues seem to greatly diminished.

[dougjohnson]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

I know I'm not Lou and I don't have nearly as many builds under my belt, but wipe-on poly is a much improved product - IMO.

You can make wipe on poly by thinning oil based brushing poly 1:1 with mineral spirits. It is a much better way to put on poly. -- Doug

[fastbike1]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

Add me to the list of folks that go the "wipe on way". I sometimes apply via foam brush or pad to get it on the surface, but immediately wipe to cover and level.

Same with stain.

[ssyfert]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

I've gained so much woodworking skills from this site, from others and including from lou. I built his c-killas this past spring and used the thru hole then rabbit bit for the driver cutouts, really lets you fine tune it. I enjoy Lou's common man approach to his write ups, doesn't make me feel less than since I can't design a crossover. And to add to the wipe on finish discussion, lately I've been using general finish's urathane topcoat. It too is a wipe on very easy and durable.

[LouC]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

I was asked what I do. It's not the only way, just my way. No argument from me about there being lots of ways to do things. And that many products are vastly improved. Many consumer products are hybrids now ("polycrylic") Certainly there are many ways to get there. So these are just my observations.

Even veneer should be sanded and sealed. I typically use 180-220 before finishing, blow it out with an air compressor, and/or wipe with a damp cloth. If you are paranoid, use a block and hand sand.

Padding or "wipe on" is definitely a better way to go than brushes. The other mistake is over working the finish. One pass with a wet pad and leave it to dry. For water based products, dilution actually makes them dry faster. Wipe on works fine, it just takes longer to build up.

True polyurethane is a "friction" finish. The bond between coats is strictly mechanical. Acrylics, like solvent lacquer, burn in between coats dissolving the layers beneath. Easier to repair. Typically rapid dry times too. (in AZ 5-10 minutes between coats) Plus it's compatible with many spray paints. Just easier to use IMO. Many commercial cabinets are finished this way.

I also use gloss exclusively. If you want satin/flat, build with gloss, just use satin for the final coat (or rub out the finish with ultra fine papers or steel wool, even double knit polyester cloth will work)

Buy any of Jeff Jewitt's books Learned more from him than anybody else! Good source for advice and products.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/

[Dirk]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

My most recent attempts have been with water-based acrylic--Minwax. The issue I had the most was bubbles. I tried all sorts of brush techniques and various levels of loading on the brush, from thick to damn near dry. The other issue (though more of an annoyance) is that, despite my best attempts to COMPLETELY clean the brush, upon 2nd use some acrylic still stuck on the bristles deposits itself on the work piece as flakes. Yeah, I'm done with that.

I like oil-based polyurethane because it is, at least, self-leveling. I do NOT like it for the same reasons mentioned above. Also, being in a colder climate, I can't use it for half the year (where my finishing has to occur indoors).

[tom_s]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

Lou, I would really like to try a lacquer finish. I guess I had been under the impression that it was harder to get right and took a lot more time. Watching that Taunton Press video on French Polishing 20+ years ago left me feeling a bit nervous about lacquer finishes.

I have a pair of small floor-standing Cryolites, very similar to the ones that sounded so nice at Iowa DIY in 2009. I veneered mine with sepele from Formwood. Can you recommend a lacquer that will accentuate the grain but not darken or color the highlights? And how much lacquer do you put on the pad...is it completely saturated?

Thanks,
Tom

[LouC]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

Not a big MinWax fan, though others have gotten great results. If you are willing to take the time, self leveling is about as bullet proof as you can get. Padding/wiping will eliminate a lot of that. Diluting 10-20% with distilled water will also help.

You might look into these. You probably won't find them at Home Depot. But they don't stink;)

• Deft Clear Wood Finish I love Deft solvent Lacquer
  
• General Finishes PolyAcrylic Wood working magazines really like this stuff.
  
• Enduro Water Based Lacquer
  
• Fuhr 380 This is what I use. Not easy to find.

[LouC]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

Shellac for sealer will do a nice job on popping grain. See my reply above.

[fastbike1]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

I'm with Lou on Minwax. I've completely stopped using it.
There seems to be something about the formulation that promotes bubbles.

My most recent attempts have been with water-based acrylic--Minwax. The issue I had the most was bubbles. I tried all sorts of brush techniques and various levels of loading on the brush, from thick to damn near dry.

[Dirk]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

That's something ELSE I've done--wiping-on shellac. I did it on my Revelations (linked below). My problem was that the shellac flashed so fast that when I wiped in one direction, the top was dry by the upstroke. This was in 40-50F temps in my sunroom in March. Once I figure out the gun techniques, I'm going to clean them up and refinish them.

[dlneubec]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

If anyone wants to try a good self-leveling poly, this is one I've had great luck with. However, it takes a good 3-6 hours for a surface to dry. I actually had my best results using one of those short nap painting pads with it. Rather than cleaning the pad, I sealed it, impregnated with poly in a double zip-lock bag and stored it in the freezer between coats. Eventually you have to replace it with a new one, but it lasted longer that way than it did when cleaning one. I think I went through about 3 pads on the HOSS project, and that was with multiple coats.

http://www.thepaintstore.com/Old_Masters_Polyurethane_p/o49410.htm

[mtmpenn]

Re: LouC: A couple questions about your carpentry

I'm a definite newb, but will second wiping finishes. Danish oil is super easy. I also found general finishes products to be excellent.

My recent shellac experience was positive after several frustrating previous attempts. The key was to use a french polish technique. There are lots of good instructional sources on the internet. The major advantage here was the near complete absence of odor when you mix your own shellac and the ability to impart a little color in the wood by selecting specific flakes (amber, garnet, etc).

Mike