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AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

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  • ErinH
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Ultimately, wouldn't the final arbiter be your ears in the installation? What if under normal use, with subs underneath, xmax never factors in, and all you're left with is the linear performance that feyz points out is superior.

    Maybe that's why winslow says he's been enjoying them so much, despite what their xmax might be.
    Of course use is the deciding factor. But the purpose of all the testing I and others provide is to make the best educated guess. Then you make the purchase and put it to the ear test.
    Data is a guide toward determining value and if a driver meets your requirements. All these are up to the end user.


    Speaking of linear performance...
    I've grown less and less concerned with actual HD. Typically it's so low that it's not something I'm concerned with. I use it as a guide to help me determine a nominal passband. The real area I pay attention to is the linearity of frequency response. I'm not saying distortion measurements don't matter. I absolutely think they do. I just don't get as worked up about it as I used to as long as its within some threshold (3% THD seems to fit the bill well, based on my own subjective testing and based off the data on the klippel auralization test).

    Jeff said he wasn't impressed with these. Jeff, would you mind sticking your neck out and maybe giving some tidbits why?

    Leave a comment:


  • ErinH
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    So, from now on we don't care about xmax? ;)

    The bottom line is its a worthwhile contribotr and shows up in low end distortion measurements. Check the thread for some newly posted data. There's an obvious trend there.

    I understand where you guys are coming from but it seems that now, after this driver shows poor linear throw, people are willing to accept that and make a case for it.
    Personally, I feel that if the midbasses region is muddy, the rest of the system response suffers. I've learned this from car audio as well.

    That said, this driver has great third order distortion. But you clearly see the effect of low linear xmax in low frequency HD.

    Leave a comment:


  • CUtiger
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    The only times I THINK I notice it are with content I am EXTREMELY familiar with in real life settings. But on the whole I agree distortion matter most when it gets into the vocal range which we are all genetically programmed to listen to more carefully.

    Leave a comment:


  • killa
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
    Or, it could just be that Xmax is over-rated in any event. As this klippel testing is showing us time and time again, almost all manufacturers over-rate their Xmax - sometimes dramatically.

    This is leading me to believe one of two things: that we can't hear low end distortion very well, or we are used to crappy bass. My tendency is leaning towards the latter what with all the 4-6" 40Hz systems we all build.
    Yup most people don't notice crappy bass. I have played bass since I was young and have not heard very many speakers that reproduce the bass guitars sound correctly. The tone and sound of the strings is almost always lost and it is not usually the recording. I have yet to hear a small bookshelf that reproduces good bass. Decent enough for most though.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnnyrichards
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Actually, learning to appreciate clean bass at meaningful volumes is a damn good reason to play with car audio. I noticed a huge improvement in bass distortion when I went from the Dayton SDVC 8" to the OEM Infinity CMMD 10" system - level matched. Measurements backed that subjective impression, as well.

    I would like to see results for the new 8" Dayton DVC. I have an extra if you want it. I have my doubts on the linearity of that driver at 7mm.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnnyrichards
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Or, it could just be that Xmax is over-rated in any event. As this klippel testing is showing us time and time again, almost all manufacturers over-rate their Xmax - sometimes dramatically.

    This is leading me to believe one of two things: that we can't hear low end distortion very well, or we are used to crappy bass. My tendency is leaning towards the latter what with all the 4-6" 40Hz systems we all build.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pete Schumacher
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by ErinH View Post
    Fair point. But, let me ask you this:
    If the distortion is close, as you say, then would you not consider the xmax a tiebreaker? Is the lessened distortion of the 18h enough to outweigh the fact that it has lower xmax?

    Xmax does indeed translate in to better distortion. The klippel provides the data as a 10% overall distortion value so it's accounted for in the results. It may be the differnce in low end distortion vs. high end.


    Just some things to consider.
    Ultimately, wouldn't the final arbiter be your ears in the installation? What if under normal use, with subs underneath, xmax never factors in, and all you're left with is the linear performance that feyz points out is superior.

    Maybe that's why winslow says he's been enjoying them so much, despite what their xmax might be.

    Leave a comment:


  • ErinH
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by feyz View Post
    I feel like you guys are giving Xmax too much importance.

    I am looking at your Vifa 180W and this C-Quenze driver distortion measuremenet results, and C-Quenze is better. They are close but C-Quenze is better overall, 3rd, 4th and 5th are lower than Vifa. Both in HD and IMD side. Its IMD 3rd order is particularly good.

    What good is high Xmax if it doesn't translate into better distortion? These are midwoofer drivers.
    Fair point. But, let me ask you this:
    If the distortion is close, as you say, then would you not consider the xmax a tiebreaker? Is the lessened distortion of the 18h enough to outweigh the fact that it has lower xmax?

    Xmax does indeed translate in to better distortion. The klippel provides the data as a 10% overall distortion value so it's accounted for in the results. It may be the differnce in low end distortion vs. high end.


    Just some things to consider.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff B.
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by DDF View Post
    But it has to be very small and a lot of excursion.
    Agreed. I was just dealing with absolutes. In most cases it's not enough to notice, that's for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • feyz
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    The vifa 180w, to me, seems like a much better driver and it's about 1/4 the price
    I feel like you guys are giving Xmax too much importance.

    I am looking at your Vifa 180W and this C-Quenze driver distortion measuremenet results, and C-Quenze is better. They are close but C-Quenze is better overall, 3rd, 4th and 5th are lower than Vifa. Both in HD and IMD side. Its IMD 3rd order is particularly good.

    What good is high Xmax if it doesn't translate into better distortion? These are midwoofer drivers.

    Leave a comment:


  • DDF
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
    Small boxes introduce nonlinearities in driver excursion; a form of distortion. So, compared to a small sealed box, free air is more linear.
    But it has to be very small and a lot of excursion.

    Leave a comment:


  • ErinH
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by winslow View Post

    But you've heard those drivers for how many years now and have loved them...you know you have. I do want to hear some Illuminators though.
    Yes, but we know that install and tune is what really makes the difference. I just can't get past the low xmax. At nearly $800/pair, it's just sad.

    And, to be honest, I have heard these for years now. I like the scan more. At Low Frequency in the car, it's about pressurization without distortion. The room modes more than kill any hope for achieving sonic bliss and the install really dictates what the outcome is.

    I don't know... I just don't see it.

    Leave a comment:


  • winslow
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Dude if I had some, I would take it...wife is about 2.5 months pregnant again and my day job is managing a H&B Block office. No rest right now. Combine that with me trying to learn how to use akabak to make some unity-style horns for the car, I am pooped.

    But you've heard those drivers for how many years now and have loved them...you know you have. I do want to hear some Illuminators though.

    Originally posted by ErinH View Post
    Like what? Seriously, are you on meth, Jason?

    :p

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff B.
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by GranteedEV View Post
    While I agree with you.. I have to wonder...

    Do (smaller) boxes introduce their own effect on the compliance curve? Does a driver become less, or more linear in free air?
    Small boxes introduce nonlinearities in driver excursion; a form of distortion. So, compared to a small sealed box, free air is more linear.

    Leave a comment:


  • ErinH
    replied
    Re: AudioTechnology 18H Klippel Test

    Originally posted by winslow View Post
    Despite not testing stellar, I do love these speakers. They seem to be able to do things that the tests do not indicate they should be able to do.
    Like what? Seriously, are you on meth, Jason?

    :p

    Leave a comment:

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