Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

6Db. crossovers????

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: 6Db. crossovers????

    Originally posted by Deward Hastings View Post
    Good for you that you have it all figured out and know all there is to know. It will make speaker design almost boringly simple . . .
    I agree and think moron99 should enlighten us all with his perfect speaker design. :rolleyes:
    It's almost like the political circus going on now in the republican party - all the negativism with no forthcoming of constructive ideas.
    Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: 6Db. crossovers????

      what makes speaker design interesting is complex numbers. it was less than 150 years ago that leading mathematicians were calling them "imaginary numbers" and intending it as an insult. Learning the math behind speakers puts you into a largely unexplored and undiscovered world.

      As regards speakers. There has not been a significant new discovery or method in over 30 years. Just because people can do the same thing at home on a computer doesn't mean they are doing anything new. For the most part people are just changing the tread patterns on their wagon wheels.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: 6Db. crossovers????

        Vandersteen
        Thiel
        Look them up, lol!
        Not saying that I have any preference for them or 1st order networks.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: 6Db. crossovers????

          Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
          I agree and think moron99 should enlighten us all with his perfect speaker design. :rolleyes:
          It's almost like the political circus going on now in the republican party - all the negativism with no forthcoming of constructive ideas.
          I doubt you'd understand. It isn't in the cookbooks. You take the output you want and divide it by the speaker you have. The result is the crossover you need to build.

          your perfect speaker may not be the same as mine. mine is a bessel. i don't think most people like bessel. it is like having a salad without any dressing.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: 6Db. crossovers????

            Originally posted by moron#99 View Post
            what makes speaker design interesting is complex numbers. it was less than 150 years ago that leading mathematicians were calling them "imaginary numbers" and intending it as an insult. Learning the math behind speakers puts you into a largely unexplored and undiscovered world.

            As regards speakers. There has not been a significant new discovery or method in over 30 years. Just because people can do the same thing at home on a computer doesn't mean they are doing anything new. For the most part people are just changing the tread patterns on their wagon wheels.
            A complex number, even today LOL, is made up of a real and imaginary part.
            Are you actually an engineer or mathematician?
            "largely unexplored and undiscovered world" you've got to be kidding?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: 6Db. crossovers????

              Originally posted by moron#99 View Post
              I doubt you'd understand. It isn't in the cookbooks. You take the output you want and divide it by the speaker you have. The result is the crossover you need to build.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                Originally posted by moron#99 View Post
                your perfect speaker may not be the same as mine. mine is a bessel. i don't think most people like bessel. it is like having a salad without any dressing.
                Well, that says a lot.
                John k.... Music and Design NaO dsp Dipole Loudspeakers.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                  Originally posted by GranteedEV View Post
                  -- drivers sum in phase quadrature, so if the desired transfer functions are off-the-mark, you might get phaseyness
                  Phaseyness? Sounds like Lynn Olson. What you get with summing in quadrature is flat power response but a peak on one side of the vertical response and a null on the other. The phase misalignment off axis is no greater than an "in phase" crossover". The difference is only in the sensitivity to the summed amplitude. With a quadrature sum the amplitude is much more affected by a +/- 10 degree phase error due to changes in propagation distance as you move off axis vertically than it is with an in phase sum. But phaseyness? That's just another meaningless audiophile term. why spoil another wise good post with that kind of nonsense.
                  Last edited by johnk...; 03-13-2012, 06:25 AM.
                  John k.... Music and Design NaO dsp Dipole Loudspeakers.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                    Originally posted by moron#99 View Post
                    I doubt you'd understand. It isn't in the cookbooks. You take the output you want and divide it by the speaker you have. The result is the crossover you need to build.

                    your perfect speaker may not be the same as mine. mine is a bessel. i don't think most people like bessel. it is like having a salad without any dressing.
                    Hasn't speaker math been around for at least 40 or more years? Maybe you've just discovered it. Visit the AES website and enjoy.

                    Bessel, 1st order, 2LR, 4LR, etc, etc. etc.. YMMV as they say
                    Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                      Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                      I agree and think moron99 should enlighten us all with his perfect speaker design. :rolleyes:
                      It's almost like the political circus going on now in the republican party - all the negativism with no forthcoming of constructive ideas.
                      Jason


                      "In my opinion, there are more tactful ways to state your opinion."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                        Originally posted by Pete Basel View Post
                        A complex number, even today LOL, is made up of a real and imaginary part.
                        Are you actually an engineer or mathematician?
                        "largely unexplored and undiscovered world" you've got to be kidding?

                        i am an engineer. Georgia Tech. Yes, imo, imaginary are largely unexplored. For example, you can do a nyquist stability criteria for the human sexual response. My wife thought it was so nerdy - until I showed her what I meant. and then there are car suspensions. if you applied imaginary mathematics to them then it would seem to make more sense to have two springs of different strengths rather than a single. the list of places where imaginary numbers are not yet applied is huge.

                        More to the point of loudspeakers - i have never seen any textbook in either audio or filter engineering discuss the topic of transforming one type of filter into another by the selective addition of poles. which is what I do with my speaker designs. the simplest example is a butrterworth acoustic suspension cabinet. butterworth has two poles at +-45 degree from axis bessel has three poles at +-45 and on the axis. by inserting the third pole you can turn the butterworth into a bessel. the woofer ringing will go from 3 cycles to one half. to hear audible difference just feed it a drum solo or a square wave.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                          Originally posted by moron#99 View Post
                          More to the point of loudspeakers - i have never seen any textbook in either audio or filter engineering discuss the topic of transforming one type of filter into another by the selective addition of poles. which is what I do with my speaker designs. the simplest example is a butrterworth acoustic suspension cabinet. butterworth has two poles at +-45 degree from axis bessel has three poles at +-45 and on the axis. by inserting the third pole you can turn the butterworth into a bessel. the woofer ringing will go from 3 cycles to one half. to hear audible difference just feed it a drum solo or a square wave.
                          I think you are thinking of impulse response as the square wave response of B2, Be2 or LR2 HP filters are pretty much the same for any frequency near or above the cut off. Additionally, the audible difference between these alignments has more to do with amplitude response than transient. For example, the ringing you refer to is of very low amplitude and, compared to the ringing of the drum itself, insignificant. A drum is a very high Q resonant system compared to any 2nd order HP filter with Q less that 1.
                          John k.... Music and Design NaO dsp Dipole Loudspeakers.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                            in this example the bessel is a highpass. your computer models should work out fine if you compare something like a 34hz second order butterworth to a 35hz third order bessel.

                            it does not have to be third order. you can also transform a second order to a fourth order bessel high pass. but some people already own butterworth A/S so 3rd order is a simple add-on. I am hesitant to say upgrade. A lot of people like extra boom and they won't like their speakers as much without the low frequency ringing.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                              There's an old saying that you'll learn is very true as time goes on, new ideas have most often already been invented, not always but most of the time. This is not to discourage you from coming up with new ideas, just do the background research to be sure and you'll probably learn more along the way.

                              What you're suggesting has been covered in concept at least and for speakers by the Linkwitz Transform (LT). The LT has been around for over 30 years, the theory much longer than that. Further, any minimum phase EQ that reshapes a transfer function accomplishes what you are describing. The key point is that individual drivers are minimum phase systems, and if you apply minimum phase EQ matching the amplitude response to a new target, it will also have the same phase and transient response as the target. This has been known for a very long time, I would not doubt for 100 years or more. This is all basic theory behind signal processing - my graduate work was in analog and digital signal processing. Believe me there is much more advanced material than what you are describing.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: 6Db. crossovers????

                                Originally posted by moron#99 View Post
                                it does not have to be third order. you can also transform a second order to a fourth order bessel high pass. but some people already own butterworth A/S so 3rd order is a simple add-on. I am hesitant to say upgrade. A lot of people like extra boom and they won't like their speakers as much without the low frequency ringing.
                                A Bessel response has a much more gradual amplitude roll off than a B2 and therefore how do you know that the difference you hear is ringing rather than amplitude response differences. This alone suggests that you are just speculating, have you done a controlled experiment?

                                I'm in agreement with John K. on the amplitude response differences, and room effects being far more significant than a B2 vs. BES3. In fact, I made a similar statement on the internet probably 15 years ago.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X