very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

[codycr6]

I'm looking to build a nice front set to go with a remodel of my living room, including a wall mounted flat screen television. My living room is small and everything will be near field. I have a separate subwoofer, but I would still like respectable midbass and strong output. My screen will be mounted on the wall, and total depth will probably only be around 4-4.5 inches. I can use plenty of height on my sides and a wide center channel, I would just like to minimize depth. I browsed through the projects, but I didn't see anything similar. Maybe an MTM with a couple of 4 or 5 1/4 inch drivers? Any help is appreciated!

[WernerM]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Since you are doing a remodel, have you thought about or checked into building them into the wall? Just a thought...

[Mayhem13]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

My choice would also be in-walls.....and for good reason....smoother midbass response and less diffraction. To maximize on performance and reduce unwanted resonances from the wall cavities and drywall, MDF enclosures placed into the wall are a quick, inexpensive solution.

[matt996]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Although they are still a work-in-progress, you could check out Paul Carmody's Event Horizon.

From what I gathered in the thread the sealed design was essentially good to go, though he was having some issues getting the vented box design sorted out. Since you're pairing with a sub, then the sealed cab might be perfect.

[fbov]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

I'm looking to build a nice front set to go with a remodel of my living room, including a wall mounted flat screen television. My living room is small and everything will be near field. I have a separate subwoofer, but I would still like respectable midbass and strong output. My screen will be mounted on the wall, and total depth will probably only be around 4-4.5 inches. I can use plenty of height on my sides and a wide center channel, I would just like to minimize depth. I browsed through the projects, but I didn't see anything similar. Maybe an MTM with a couple of 4 or 5 1/4 inch drivers? Any help is appreciated!

The first thing you should look for is a complete design family, including center channel and in-wall XO options. Paul Carmody's ONS suite has the options you want, down to the CC, as does CJD's Aviatrix in a slightly larger format. I used Jon Marsh's Modula family of designs from several years ago. The key is the dedicated CC design, and options for freestanding or in-wall mounting. The master list of designs is a sticky at teh top of Tech Talk.

Note that these designs progress from 75-100mm drivers to 140mm to 180mm, with corresponding increases in cost and SPL capability, but not overall sound quality within their intended range of operation. All will have their greatest sensitivity when mounted in-wall, so you won't need to go as big for the same output capability.

+1 for in-wall mounting.
+1 for sealed designs since you have a sub
+1 for subenclosures inside the wall.

Assuming the TV is at eye level, put the tweeter as close to ear level as possible. If using MTMs, this becomes critical as they are designed for reduced output toward ceiliing and floor.

Finally, don't forget acoustic room treatment. Start with basic room design and layout; windows act as bass traps that reflect highs very well unless curtained. Carpet with thick pad is a very effective absorber. Curtains hang a few inches from the wall, a very effective place for absorber. Furniture upholstered in fabric absorb sound, in leather it reflect sound.

Once you're put in these life style factors, there may be additional needs for room treatment. There is no doubt that treating the front and rear walls is effective in improving sound with no downside. There is considerable controversy over side wall treatment, especially first reflection points, unless you read the literature, which is clear - humans prefer to hear lateral reflections when listening for pleasure. Treat side walls last, and try to avoid the first reflection...

HAve fun,
Frank

[codycr6]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Thank you, I will look at them! Not really thinking of going in-wall because I worry about permanent modifications for speakers I may decide I don't like or want to change sometime in the future. At my old house I ran an IB subwoofer venting through an existing access opening to the attic. It worked great, but if I had cut the holes just for the subwoofer I would have had to do major repairs when selling the house. If there was a good way to audition in-walls, it might be different. But they will always sound different in YOUR room, and once the holes are cut, they are there! I will look into it more, just not real enthusiastic about the idea.

Thanks!

[WernerM]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Thank you, I will look at them! Not really thinking of going in-wall because I worry about permanent modifications for speakers I may decide I don't like or want to change sometime in the future. At my old house I ran an IB subwoofer venting through an existing access opening to the attic. It worked great, but if I had cut the holes just for the subwoofer I would have had to do major repairs when selling the house. If there was a good way to audition in-walls, it might be different. But they will always sound different in YOUR room, and once the holes are cut, they are there! I will look into it more, just not real enthusiastic about the idea.

Thanks!

The reason that I suggested "in wall" is because you don't have the baffle (the wall is your baffle) distortion issues most commonly found with a loudspeaker design. I think that is right... So you wil be rewareded with a much better HT experience. Also, there are several free software programs that everyone here has been kind enough to tell me about, that you can use to model different drivers, BEFORE doing the install. It may not be perfect, but should come really close to what you will actually experience. Now that being said, if done right, and you ever move again, you could always use them as a selling point. That is as long as it doesn't "over value" your neighborhood or home.

[fbov]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Actually, you can audition in-wall speakers without cutting holes you your walls - build the freestanding version. It will cost you the box and an extra XO circuit, but the sound will be remarkably similar to what you'll hear after flush mounting that design.

What will change is overall sensitivity (higher in-wall) and the degree of room interaction. If you're using MTMs, the latter will be minimal, and isn't noticable in a multichannel application, regardless.

This takes a leap of faith, or attendance at a DIY speaker event. You close to any?

Have fun,
Frank

[codycr6]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Actually, you can audition in-wall speakers without cutting holes you your walls - build the freestanding version. It will cost you the box and an extra XO circuit, but the sound will be remarkably similar to what you'll hear after flush mounting that design.

What will change is overall sensitivity (higher in-wall) and the degree of room interaction. If you're using MTMs, the latter will be minimal, and isn't noticable in a multichannel application, regardless.

This takes a leap of faith, or attendance at a DIY speaker event. You close to any?

Have fun,
Frank

I am just outside of Memphis, not sure if there are any events in my area. Where can I find a list?

[fbov]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

That's one thread we could really use, an evergreen list of planned DIY events.

The problem is that these things range from commercial affairs like PE's MWAF to a couple friends inviting some folks over to their house or workshop to listen to speakers. The best you can do is follow the forums and watch for notices to see if one will happen near you.
MWAF

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=230472

Iowa

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=231201&highlight=iowa

InDIYana

https://sites.google.com/site/indiyanaevent/

NYC

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=218166&highlight=brooklyn

and a general discussion

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=229373

Have fun,
Frank

[rvsixer]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Assuming the LCR speakers will be somewhere in the vicinity of the wall mounted TV sticking out 4.5-5", I'm not so sure in wall designs are the best option. I mean, here you have speakers mounted in the wall, right next to a large diffractor/reflector sticking out in front of them .

Personally, I would build a lightweight fake wall. As tall and as wide as you can make it, and as deep as your TV. Mount in-wall speaker designs into it, make a cutout for the TV, hang/attach fake wall on real wall. Now you have a flush mounted TV, in wall speakers with (nearly) no baffle, hidden wiring, no major alterations to the original structure, and the setup is movable to next residence.

[codycr6]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

Assuming the LCR speakers will be somewhere in the vicinity of the wall mounted TV sticking out 4.5-5", I'm not so sure in wall designs are the best option. I mean, here you have speakers mounted in the wall, right next to a large diffractor/reflector sticking out in front of them .

Personally, I would build a lightweight fake wall. As tall and as wide as you can make it, and as deep as your TV. Mount in-wall speaker designs into it, make a cutout for the TV, hang/attach fake wall on real wall. Now you have a flush mounted TV, in wall speakers with (nearly) no baffle, hidden wiring, no major alterations to the original structure, and the setup is movable to next residence.

The whole idea of this design is to save floor space... if I was just going to build a wall out the entire width of my living room, I would just save myself the money and keep the current entertainment center with a standard TV and speakers sitting on a shelf. No reason to spend thousands of dollars for little net gain.

[rvsixer]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

The whole idea of this design is to save floor space... if I was just going to build a wall out the entire width of my living room, I would just save myself the money and keep the current entertainment center with a standard TV and speakers sitting on a shelf. No reason to spend thousands of dollars for little net gain.

It's obvious my idea was entirely missed (it's cheap, loses minimal if any floor space, and maximizes sound quality over either boxed speakers on walls or inwalls with a big TV right next to them). Best...

[codycr6]

Re: very shallow L/C/R (beside wall mount TV)

It's obvious my idea was entirely missed (it's cheap, loses minimal if any floor space, and maximizes sound quality over either boxed speakers on walls or inwalls with a big TV right next to them). Best...

The floor space lost would be around 6 inches deep by the entire length of the wall, would it not? That wall goes only three feet to the right of the tv, but 9 feet to the left and ends at a doorway. Unless you are just talking about making the "false wall" just large enough to encompass the tv and speakers, in which case it would still be around six feet wide, six inches deep, and 8 feet tall? Assuming the speakers are built directly beside the tv, how wide past each side would you extend the wall? In this case, they would act very similar to an in wall speaker. The construction to be fairly dead could get pretty extensive (heavy). How would BSC be in that situation? There would be quite a bit of airspace, so there is the possibility of doing a subwoofer with multiple smaller drivers (still have to think of mounting depth).