Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

[mattsk8]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Just for the record, the guy that wrote the review I posted had already left before we played Ben's Attitudes. I really wish he would've been there for those, then we could have more than just mine or Ben's opinions. Maybe next time we should make some sort of simple, anonymous review sheet for everyone to fill out.

Another double blind test thread and the usual arguments for and against. It's been raised before, but I thought I'd ask again, why do the proponents of DBT insist that it be used for cables, but not for comparing speakers? Why is it okay to "see" each different speaker you listen to when it's not okay to "see" different cables you listen to? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

Another proponent for spending thousands on speaker cables I'm guessing? If what you're saying is true, then the Statements should have come in dead last, right behind the stock radio in my Suburban; because they were still unfinished MDF cabinets.

The point of getting together wasn't to win an argument, rather to get together and listen to a bunch of great designs. The designers of the speakers we listened to are all well respected, not considered controversial (at least as far as their designs are concerned, don't know them personally), and put a lot into these designs. There were a lot of questions as to which sounded better between the Statements and the ER18s, and doing this was more of an avenue of giving credit where credit is do, rather than trying to see what's better. Also, the guys that attended the demo had no real vested interest that I'm aware of in finding a winner. Just a bunch of like minded guys that wanted to get together and listen to some amazing DIY speaker designs.

That said, I am a fan of blind, lights out testing. If we needed a complete, w/out a doubt test, I agree w/ you on the blind folds.

[Nowd]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Another double blind test thread and the usual arguments for and against. It's been raised before, but I thought I'd ask again, why do the proponents of DBT insist that it be used for cables, but not for comparing speakers? Why is it okay to "see" each different speaker you listen to when it's not okay to "see" different cables you listen to? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

[Wolf]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

If you saw the circuit, you'd understand why. I've not even published it publicly. Being the way it turned out, I'd want to try and keep it similar.
Just because I could doesn't mean it would be preferrable or as nice. I was picky about my driver selection on these, and would like to keep it as close as possible in performance.
Currently, the EM1308 is likely the best contender, at $150+, and twice what I spent on the originals...
...and again- I don't want a cone mid.
...and again- price range is HIGH!!! on the Accutons.

Later,
Wolf

[Wolf]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Just in case someone wants a once-over for the mid I did use...

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=276-620

Later,
Wolf

PS- BRING IT BACK!!!!, BRING IT BACK!!!!, BRING IT BACK!!!!

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

It wouldn't take much to make a small "cup" using PVC and an end cap stuffed with fill to enclose the Fountek. Wouldn't need to be much bigger than the rear chamber of the Usher.

Don't tell me you couldn't work that lower sensitivity driver into your 3-way Wolf . . . piece of cake for you. ;)

There's always the Accuton . . .

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/accuton-c50-8-044-2-ceramic-dome-midrange/

[Wolf]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Marvin- the Neo8 is just too large. Otherwise that could have been a mini-Echelon project.

Wolf, why not substitute something like the SS Discovery 4" mid, or maybe even the little Fountek FR88EX. Those Attitudes deserve to have a mid that is not unobtanium.
A better option might be the Morel MDM55. The Attitude's sensitivity is pretty low, so a small format cone like that Fountek would certainly be an option.

Pete- The issues presented are that I would have to have a dome mid. I can't spare the volume for a cone and I would not call anything conical a justification of this design. The MDM55/CAM-558/EM-1308 have x'd my mind more than once, and they likely would work. I just don't know if I'd get the response or blend that is what the Attitudes have the way the xover is designed. Since PE will be stocking the Visaton units, their units will also likely become an option. Being that the Usher was also ~$75 each when it was for sale, I'd like to remain in that ballpark if possible and not exceed $100 for the driver each. The Discovery 3" dome will not have the response characteristics to work well here. The way the xover is designed, I prefer to have a highish sensitivity to start with.

I agree that it needs to live again publicly, but so far I've not seen an appropriate driver.
Later,
Wolf

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Would a BG neo8 be a good candidate?

Marvin

Probably, but it's on the large size for Wolf's baffle. A better option might be the Morel MDM55. The Attitude's sensitivity is pretty low, so a small format cone like that Fountek would certainly be an option.

[marvin]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Matt commented on the way home that I "basically have a 20-20k speaker there, and they do everything as good or better than the other ones that were there today in a lot smaller size."

I believe that anyone would be able to build a similar pair on-par with them if their xover and ear skills are up to snuff. You just have to use that woofer, that tweeter, and sub a different mid of at least the same quality (and not the RS52!!!). If there ever comes a mid that should be suitable, I'll attempt it, but thus far no dice.

Thank you much for your comments, they are appreciated.
Later,
Wolf

Wolf, why not substitute something like the SS Discovery 4" mid, or maybe even the little Fountek FR88EX. Those Attitudes deserve to have a mid that is not unobtanium.

Would a BG neo8 be a good candidate?

Marvin

[mattsk8]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Here's a well written review from a gentleman that attended the demo that would like to remain anonymous. I'm sure you guys will figure this out on your own, but the unfinished (4' ish tall??) speakers he's referring to are the Statements and the cherry speakers he's referring to are the ER18s.

I was lucky enough to listen in on the demo of the WMTMW style tower (over 4' tall and appeared unfinished) and the (MW)T(MW) with a "cherry?" finish, both featuring the ribbon style tweeter.


For me beauty is in the eye and ear of the beholder and everyone will have a different opinion based on their personal perception. We are all built differently and essentially have different crossovers built into our brains. I have met people where the amplifier is the contour they are looking for, others the crossover, others the cabinet shape and material. These can all be important things, but the most important is the listeners personal perception.


I must say the staging and presentation of both were quite remarkable.



I had a limited listen to the larger of the two, but what I did notice was clarity of detail, slightly sharp mids, but a solid low end. I am interested in seeing the finished product.


The smaller of the two (MW)T(MW) which I will just call the Cherry did not have the low end I was expecting based on the cabinet size. However, the detail, clarity and balance was amazing. So much so that I haven't heard such smooth and tight detail since I heard a pair of B&W802s back in 2001. Things have changed and so have my reference points as good quality speakers and dealerships of such don't seem to exist in the Grand Rapids area anymore. This was a wonderfully refreshing listen. Tell him well done.


I was impressed with the cabinet structures and quality of finishing. Your speakers do not just sound good, they look the part as well. Well done!

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Matt commented on the way home that I "basically have a 20-20k speaker there, and they do everything as good or better than the other ones that were there today in a lot smaller size."

I believe that anyone would be able to build a similar pair on-par with them if their xover and ear skills are up to snuff. You just have to use that woofer, that tweeter, and sub a different mid of at least the same quality (and not the RS52!!!). If there ever comes a mid that should be suitable, I'll attempt it, but thus far no dice.

Thank you much for your comments, they are appreciated.
Later,
Wolf

Wolf, why not substitute something like the SS Discovery 4" mid, or maybe even the little Fountek FR88EX. Those Attitudes deserve to have a mid that is not unobtanium.

[Paul K.]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Nope, never heard the "Pistols", at least not that I know of. My "likes" for anything other than symphonic orchestral music are very limited and specific (I do like jazz and big band music, though).
Paul

Then you must like The *** Pistols too, there's no difficulty at all understanding every syllable that Mr. Lydon spits, his enunciation is very clear.

[Wolf]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

I think I would concur on your Attitudes comment. While I don't think I heard them cranked, I was amazed at their sound. I couldn't believe how full range those were for their size. Well done Ben! Too bad the mids aren't available ; although, it would take some hard core sales on my end to convince my lovely wife that spending over $1200 for them is the right thing to do!

Matt commented on the way home that I "basically have a 20-20k speaker there, and they do everything as good or better than the other ones that were there today in a lot smaller size."

I believe that anyone would be able to build a similar pair on-par with them if their xover and ear skills are up to snuff. You just have to use that woofer, that tweeter, and sub a different mid of at least the same quality (and not the RS52!!!). If there ever comes a mid that should be suitable, I'll attempt it, but thus far no dice.

Thank you much for your comments, they are appreciated.
Later,
Wolf

[clydethecat]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

The things I like best about Queen is that you can understand every single word they sing because they're voices aren't covered up by distorted guitar music, and Freddy Mercury could really sing.

Then you must like The *** Pistols too, there's no difficulty at all understanding every syllable that Mr. Lydon spits, his enunciation is very clear.

[mattsk8]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Yeah- Like I said the Attitudes are my current reference project not to be beaten in any short amount of time. I wish the Usher 9845 was still available.... (I'm biased, but I think they were better than the ER18 MTM and the Statements yesterday, in about 1/3 the volume...)

The Stance and Attitudes will have a middle sibling, called Demeanor shortly down the road with the HiVi M6a, HiVi DMB-A, and the Beston ribbons. Size roughly that of the Attitudes.
There is a design/build thread started for these...

Glad you enjoyed them!
Wolf

I think I would concur on your Attitudes comment. While I don't think I heard them cranked, I was amazed at their sound. I couldn't believe how full range those were for their size. Well done Ben! Too bad the mids aren't available ; although, it would take some hard core sales on my end to convince my lovely wife that spending over $1200 for them is the right thing to do!

[Paul K.]

Re: Meniscus Audio sound off, Aug 25th

Unless it's played really, really softly.
Paul

Just don't play Hendrix when Paul is around....
Wolf