Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

[JCSquats]

The doors in my MKV Volkswagen are setup with the following:
· Tweeters in the a-pillar
· 4” mids in the center
· 7” woofs firing at my ample rump

Currently I’ve rigged up a 2-way CDT setup in the OEM locations. I’m using the 2-way crossover with the highpass on the tweets, and the lowpass running both a 6.5” and 4” mid, wired in parallel.

It pretty much sounds like crap. Especially where midbass is concerned. Certainly that’s attributed to my faulty attempt at creating a 3-way system out of a two-way crossover.

To address this situation, I’ve decided to replace the CDT 6.5s with the Dayton RS180-4 7" Reference Woofer (4 Ohm). With that, I want to add a low-pass crossover before the Daytons at about 250hz, while leaving the CDT crossover on the 4” and tweeter only. I will not utilize the CDT crossover for the Daytons any longer.

This will be fed full-range by my Alpine PDX 150.2,l which is fine on either a 4 or 2 ohm load. I can actively adjust the highpass filters at my deck to cut off 40hz and below if I so desire.

Can anyone help me in designing and adding crossover components to these Daytons?

[JCSquats]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

Bumping this back up. I'd appreicate anything to add at this point. I think I'm essentially going to create a 3-way crossover using the current 2-way crossover in addition to the low-pass filter for the 7" Daytons.

[HareBrained]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

diymobileaudio.com would be the better location for this question... And I'm pretty sure it's been asked.

I'm glad to hear the 3 drivers connected to a 2-way crossover sound like crap. Else I'd have to check that the laws of physics were still working.

Most car audio xovers are textbook designs. Since they don't know how they'll be installed, they don't try anything special. None of the Dayton Audio assembled passive crossovers would work since they're all for 8-ohm drivers. Passive Crossover Designer could be used to design a basic xover. And there are websites that could give you a textbook xover. Good luck.

[envisionelec]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

The doors in my MKV Volkswagen are setup with the following:
· Tweeters in the a-pillar
· 4” mids in the center
· 7” woofs firing at my ample rump

Currently I’ve rigged up a 2-way CDT setup in the OEM locations. I’m using the 2-way crossover with the highpass on the tweets, and the lowpass running both a 6.5” and 4” mid, wired in parallel.

It pretty much sounds like crap. Especially where midbass is concerned. Certainly that’s attributed to my faulty attempt at creating a 3-way system out of a two-way crossover.

To address this situation, I’ve decided to replace the CDT 6.5s with the Dayton RS180-4 7" Reference Woofer (4 Ohm). With that, I want to add a low-pass crossover before the Daytons at about 250hz, while leaving the CDT crossover on the 4” and tweeter only. I will not utilize the CDT crossover for the Daytons any longer.

This will be fed full-range by my Alpine PDX 150.2,l which is fine on either a 4 or 2 ohm load. I can actively adjust the highpass filters at my deck to cut off 40hz and below if I so desire.

Can anyone help me in designing and adding crossover components to these Daytons?

No - because your car and ears will determine that. You should be designing the crossover in the active domain else you'll be wasting lots of time between building and measuring. The days of compromising with passive crossovers are over.

The DCX2496 and the popular 12V conversion power supply, DSPower, is a good place to start.

[JCSquats]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

The original plan was to run an active setup, by using a 4-channel amp; the front 2 channels on the mids and tweets (yes, still passive I realize), and the rear 2 channels on the Daytons.

Upon research on how to run all the speaker wire needed on my VW's doors, and finding it pretty much required complete removal of the door skin, important/expensive/fragile components within the door, as well as serious modification to the rubber boot/grommet will absolutely curtail me from going down this path.

Looks like I'll be designing a proper 3-way passive setup afterall.

[ernperkins]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

I think there's a problem with your passive configuration - you don't mention a corresonding highpass (~250 Hz) for your 4" mid to match the Dayton 250 Hz low pass. Without the highpass the 4" mid will be trying (vainly) to reproduce the lower frequencies the RS-180 is supposed to be covering by itself. So you need a two-way, 250 Hz crossover in addition to the CDT one you have. In addition, you'll need some type of level control (i.e. padding resistor) to match the RS-180 output to the CDT pair.

It's doable, but not without problems. Two problems with passive xovers at lower frequencies are their cost (inductors especially) and size. You don't mention the deck you have, but by inference it sounds like you plan to run everything using the deck's amp. Is this correct?

regards....

[JCSquats]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

Nope, it will be ran off my PDX 150.2. The amp will be left in full range, but the deck (an Excelon unit) has variable HP filters that I can change on the fly. More than enough power, but I will be limited to using the OEM speaker wire as it runs through my door boot.

I'm open to suggestions, and have lots of time to research/learn/plan.

One idea is to utilize the CDT crossover to feed the 4" and Tweet, then design a two-way to LP to the Dayton at around 250hz and pre-CDT crossover. Where I need to go research is what will happen to phase and such if I do this.

The other idea is to scrap the CDT crossover entirely, and design a 3-way for all three drivers.

Still another idea is to spend the big bucks and purchase an actual 3-way component set.

[Chris Roemer]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

A 2nd order LP using a 3.5mH (I-Core) coil (DCR 0.4 ohms) and a 125uF (npe) shunt cap will knock the RS180 down -3dB at 250 Hz.

[tf1216]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

How about running the tweeter and midrange off of the head unit power? You can use the CDT passive crossover using one or two channels of the head unit power per side. Try both. Then use the amplifier to power the Daytons. It appears that your head unit has a high pass filter at 80 Hz plus the amplifier's low pass crossover should get you started. Level match the drivers and you are off and running.

How do you change the crossover settings on your amp. I am looking at a picture of it and I can't seem to figure it out.

[JCSquats]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

That could be an option, but it would require running new speaker wire, which is pretty much out of the question with as crazy as my door is.

The amp does indeed have crossover settings on the opposite side of the input side. I can see your trouble if you Google Image searched for a picture, I couldn't find any myself. But its there. Variable crossover, selectable HP, LP, or through.

Thanks for all the help! I won't be performing the install until Spring, so I have plenty of time to reasearch, learn, and plant before I take the plunge.

[JCSquats]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

I am back to update this thread and provide some bit of resolution to my problem. Using knowledge gained from both you guys and DIYMA I’ve finally got myself a front stage in my car that puts a smile on my face and I believe will make me happy throughout the remaining life of the vehicle.

Ultimately the lessons I’ve taken away from this is: let the experts or OEMs handle the complicated task of building a passive 3-way crossover, and use drivers for their intended use. I’ve finally done that – for the most part. Let me walk you through my process and learning.

Here is my car.


The biggest challenges with this project was my lack of time. You see, I work and live in Naperville (Chicago burbs) during the week, and rent out a 1-bedroom. On the weekends I go home to see my wife, dog, and my simple condo in the Detroit burbs. The condo I am currently renovating during the weekend so I can rent it out in September.

So the 285 mile trip is mostly consumed by music listening from either CD, MP3, or Pandora by way of Aux jack. The 180 mile span across Michigan on I-94 is especially grueling, as it consists of 2 lanes and nobody ever moves over to let slower traffic pass. It is also quite straight and boring.

Since weekends are the only time I have available, I only have but a car port to keep my car under, and the winter this year didn’t really conclude until May, I’ve only had a chance to play/work on this project in the last 2 months.

The original plan was to increase my midbass, which was pretty much nonexistent in my system. The RS180s fit the bill for their value and following. Keeping the system passive was my only option, as the [email protected] factor to run speaker wire for a fully active system was out of my time budget. Not to mention utilizing a larger multi-channel amplifier starts encroaching on my desire to keep current draw at a minimum.



The first step in the process was doing away with the crappy CDT 2-way setup I rigged by using the 4” mid and 6.5” midwoofer on the same lowpass. Oops. I procured some cheap Audiopipe 3-way passives, utilized the MDF rings a buddy made for me over a year ago for the RS180s. I also spent about $30 on some CLD tiles and applied them where possible.

Cheap crossover, CLD tiles


Carefully, in between coats of paint inside the house, I affixed the RS180s, sound deadened where possible, secured and buttoned up what I could.



I was successful! Suddenly I had midbass, and quite a good bit of it.

But holy cow, my midrange and treble was ridiculously bright. EQing 1.5khz and 12khz down 5-6dB each, my music was… tolerable. I knew getting in to it that an “all around” passive 3-way crossover wasn’t going to cut it for me; but just these steps alone consumed my entire weekend. I’d have to stand it for another few weeks until I could figure out what came next.

What did come next was a pleasant surprise after a somewhat unpleasant experience. I received a $100 Amazon gift card after a 2 hour long conversation with a health insurance “lifestyle” nurse about how I commit to improving my health (which is actually pretty darn good, thankyouverymuch). That allowed me to pick up the Precision Power PC3.65C 3-way setup, something I’d been eyeballing for a good 6 months now.

After another entire weekend consumed, I’m happy to announce success.



The mid from the PPI kit is 2.5”, and I did not want it mounted to the door card like the 4” was; it rattled something fierce. That said, the DIYMA guys have raved about this mid, and I can now understand why.

Note the definite increase in size on the crossovers; the PPI is easily twice as heavy. Better coils and caps, no question. Pain-in-the-*** hex connections and bulky, but I was able to squeeze it in the factory crossover location by removing some Styrofoam from the door card. All new snap clips for the door card were purchased as well.

All in all, it does indeed sound great. Vocals, guitars, strings all shine through without a screech or hissing. Cymbals sparkle and horns sound live. And midbass. I finally have midbass! I finally know what it feels and sounds like to blend a subwoofer with the rest of the music to the point you cannot tell it is there.

Next up? New sub that will play lower, and possible new head unit.

[bkeane1259]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

JC...that looks awesome!! Glad you finally nailed your midbass problem. I know it was driving you nuts for a long time. I too have a pair of RS180-4s for my E46 to fix the exact same problem. Have had ZERO time to even begin to tackle the project as it will require a good amount of door modification.

I'm a bit confused with what you did with the PPI 3-way kit. You just used the mid, tweet and XO?? My front stage is a 3-way as well, so I've been pondering replacing ALL the drivers but the impedance profile of the OEM drivers is a bit funky and I doubt I'd be able to find perfect replacements other than the RS180-4. I have to be careful because this thread is stoking my motivation.... ;)

[AJ]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

Nice MKV!

Did yours have the premium sound package (or whatever it's called)? I have a MKVI with the base system, and I think it's just a two way in the front.

[kanemack]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

[QUOTE=JCSquats;1874103]That could be an option, but it would require running new speaker wire, which is pretty much out of the question with as crazy as my door is.

the best way around complicated doors is to tape the wire to a hanger that's straightened out then put it through the rubber loom between the door and the dash if you dont have a loom but have a mollex just pop it out run the wire and drill through the mollex and run the wire through. enough time and you get really good fishing wires. hope this helps.

[JCSquats]

Re: Adding 7" Dayton Reference woofers in my GTI's doors - crossover help?

Bryan – Yep, just added the RS180s in lieu of the PPI’s 6.5s. While I haven’t made any comparison directly, I’m confident I made the right choice with all the research I did. The shining star of the PPI set is the 2.5” midrange.
I was lucky with the VW’s doors in that I had a ton of depth and space where the midbass is. Several of the hard-core DIYMA guys suggested I put an 8” there, but I already had the RS180s for quite a while, and my buddy fab’d the MDF rings specifically for the RS180. Depth is what I’d be most concerned about with the BMW. Not to mention you always have the option of running active. My Alpine amp can handle low impedance so I’m not too worried; certainly the RS180 throws a wrench into the impedance profile that PPI designed for, but oh well.

Certainly adding the little bit of sound deadening that I did helped the midbass even more.

AJ – thanks! It did indeed come with the “premium” sound system, and it was complete crap. Granted, the MKVI’s Dyaudio setup is actually pretty darn good! It was nothing like what was available in 2007. What was really lacking in the stock system was proper amplification; sure the drivers were garbage, but a true passive 3-way setup take a lot of power. It simply did not have what it took to make the OEM speakers shine. I also had a MKIV, 2004 GTI with an Image Dynamics 2-way passive setup that sounded nearly as good as this system (on the same amp, mind you). I’ve actually asked the ID guys on the DIYMA board if they’d consider producing an entry-level 3-way passive system.

kanemack – the biggest issue with my doors is the massive window regulator right in front of where the Molex connector and the rubber boot all reside. The only solution for these cars is to remove the outer door skin to make room and then fish the wire through the drilled-out connector. I researched the process, and while it isn’t impossible, it is quite tricky and time consuming. Given I only have a short window of time to work and the car needed to be back on the road by Sunday, I scrapped that idea. All of my previous vehicles I ran speaker wire without a hitch; these were just way too much of a pain.

Looking forward to my trip home this Wednesday (ok... going through Trucker Alley, Indiana with all the construction, not so much).