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So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

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  • So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

    Been really interested in trying my hand at an Econowave design for HT, to experience the waveguide effect. But having built the Tarkus as my current mains, I've been a little gun-shy because most e-wave designs don't seem to extend down very much below about 60Hz. My room has some bad bass suckout issues (treatment is not in the cards) and has benefited greatly from a pair of mains that can fill in a lot of the lows.

    The Bagby design was just posted http://www.diysoundgroup.com/wavegui...max12-kit.html and looks like it has great extension, and is also sort-of WAF acceptable because it's not very deep, at just 13" in a 2cuft box. Anyone going to try these?

  • #2
    Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

    I know what is going on my christmas list !!!



    Thank you for posting this.

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    • #3
      Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

      It would be nice to know how any of those diysoundgroup designs compare to known diy efforts. The AVS forum thread is insular with not much feedback aside from the designers themselves. Jeff's contribution is the only one I feel comfortable considering. Hopefully he will elaborate on the design and share his thoughts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

        Originally posted by Wushuliu View Post
        It would be nice to know how any of those diysoundgroup designs compare to known diy efforts. The AVS forum thread is insular with not much feedback aside from the designers themselves. Jeff's contribution is the only one I feel comfortable considering. Hopefully he will elaborate on the design and share his thoughts.
        I would be glad to. What kind of questions do you have?

        As for bass extension, Erich gave me the freedom to select whatever woofer I wanted. I literally modeled dozens from multiple manufacturers, some quite expensive. However, I had certain design goals, I wanted reasonably high sensitivity, but I did not want anything with my name on it that couldn't be used full-range and be satisfying.

        Eminence does a really good job of keeping their Qts value high enough that you can actually get some bass extension out of their drivers. Most other pro-sound drivers sacrifice this for higher efficiency. With the Definimax I could get 40Hz extension in a reasonable box. This was why this driver was chosen.

        Apart from that, Erich's cabinets are extremely well-constructed and I designed the crossover the same way I designed the crossover for speakers like the Continuum, Triton, Kairos, and others. I didn't cut any corners. I targeted flat response, correct phase tracking, controlled lobing, and good power response characteristics. I looked at all of this as the design developed. It's a Bagby design (whatever that may mean to different people), it just uses different drivers than I normally work with.

        The version with the Delta Pro 12A is less extended in the bass, but has higher sensitivity and a bit of a "punchy" midbass. Otherwise, the same design critieria was used for it too, and crossovers are very similar. It is a very enjoyable speaker to listen to. It is the configuration that I currently have set-up in my home right now.

        Jeff
        Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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        • #5
          Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

          Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
          I would be glad to. What kind of questions do you have?

          As for bass extension, Erich gave me the freedom to select whatever woofer I wanted. I literally modeled dozens from multiple manufacturers, some quite expensive. However, I had certain design goals, I wanted reasonably high sensitivity, but I did not want anything with my name on it that couldn't be used full-range and be satisfying.

          Eminence does a really good job of keeping their Qts value high enough that you can actually get some bass extension out of their drivers. Most other pro-sound drivers sacrifice this for higher efficiency. With the Definimax I could get 40Hz extension in a reasonable box. This was why this driver was chosen.

          Apart from that, Erich's cabinets are extremely well-constructed and I designed the crossover the same way I designed the crossover for speakers like the Continuum, Triton, Kairos, and others. I didn't cut any corners. I targeted flat response, correct phase tracking, controlled lobing, and good power response characteristics. I looked at all of this as the design developed. It's a Bagby design (whatever that may mean to different people), it just uses different drivers than I normally work with.

          The version with the Delta Pro 12A is less extended in the bass, but has higher sensitivity and a bit of a "punchy" midbass. Otherwise, the same design critieria was used for it too, and crossovers are very similar. It is a very enjoyable speaker to listen to. It is the configuration that I currently have set-up in my home right now.

          Jeff
          I was thinking of experimenting with a high efficiency wide range two way and thought that perhaps the Kappalite (LF - 3.7 cu. ft Vas) would be a good choice. Did you consider that driver or was the cost or Vas too high for your project?

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          • #6
            Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

            Jeff would you mind sharing your measurements?
            ~Brandon
            Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
            Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
            Soma Sonus

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            • #7
              Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

              Originally posted by peterlrabbit View Post
              I was thinking of experimenting with a high efficiency wide range two way and thought that perhaps the Kappalite (LF - 3.7 cu. ft Vas) would be a good choice. Did you consider that driver or was the cost or Vas too high for your project?

              I did consider it. It has a very smooth response too and would work very well. I liked the Definimax because of the shorting rings in the motor and measureably lower distortion than a lot of drivers, and the fact that I got good bass extensions from it. The Delta Pro 12A allowed me to make a slightly more economical design, so cost was a consideration. There is nothing wrong with the Kappalite though, it was just a matter of having to decide what choices I was going to make.
              Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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              • #8
                Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                I did consider it. It has a very smooth response too and would work very well. I liked the Definimax because of the shorting rings in the motor and measureably lower distortion than a lot of drivers, and the fact that I got good bass extensions from it. The Delta Pro 12A allowed me to make a slightly more economical design, so cost was a consideration. There is nothing wrong with the Kappalite though, it was just a matter of having to decide what choices I was going to make.
                Good to know. Other very knowledgeable and experienced folks like BillF have had great things to say about the Kappalite and I've been looking for an excuse to use it. I have no concerns about using a somewhat bigger enclosure but taming the breakup looks like it would be a little more work than the other solutions so I figured I'd ping you on it. Thanks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                  I'm on the "going to build one of Jeff's designs but still wavering" list. My usage will be 75% music 25% movies, so despite having lurked around AVS for the duration of the SEOS project I've been holding out for something approaching full range, using a proven pro woofer. Mr. Bagby's reputation is frankly icing on the cake.

                  Initially the Definimax design seemed like a no-brainer, but if I'm honest with myself about my listening habits I find myself leaning more and more toward the Delta Pro model - I listen to a LOT of classic rock, and I suspect a little extra oomph in the midbass will put a smile on my face. Learning that the designer is currently listening to those speakers himself is quite an endorsement. Thanks for chiming in here Jeff.

                  If you have time for another question or two: Was carefully controlled directivity a priority for you in these designs? Do you tend to listen to them on-axis, forward-facing, pigeon-toed? I've not heard any Constant Directivity speakers, don't know what my preference would be, and I'm curious if that's how you would describe these and if you think it's good/bad/unimportant.

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                  • #10
                    Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                    Originally posted by antisuck View Post
                    I'm on the "going to build one of Jeff's designs but still wavering" list. My usage will be 75% music 25% movies, so despite having lurked around AVS for the duration of the SEOS project I've been holding out for something approaching full range, using a proven pro woofer. Mr. Bagby's reputation is frankly icing on the cake.

                    Initially the Definimax design seemed like a no-brainer, but if I'm honest with myself about my listening habits I find myself leaning more and more toward the Delta Pro model - I listen to a LOT of classic rock, and I suspect a little extra oomph in the midbass will put a smile on my face. Learning that the designer is currently listening to those speakers himself is quite an endorsement. Thanks for chiming in here Jeff.

                    If you have time for another question or two: Was carefully controlled directivity a priority for you in these designs? Do you tend to listen to them on-axis, forward-facing, pigeon-toed? I've not heard any Constant Directivity speakers, don't know what my preference would be, and I'm curious if that's how you would describe these and if you think it's good/bad/unimportant.

                    Honestly, The Definimax version is flatter and more extended on the bottom end, but I like the Delta Pro version better when I listen to classic rock. It's a personal preference, but I like it .

                    The speakers are what would normally be referred to a Constant Directivity. Whether you place them straight ahead or toed in doesn't change things much. If the angle gets more than 30 degrees then the highs will be shelved down a bit, but for the most part they are pretty balanced, especially in a normal sized room.
                    Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                      jeff,
                      a few more questions if you don't mind-
                      considering these speakers use pro drivers spl is no issue ,but how would you rank the sound quality compared to other offerings ? the two woofers produce a different bass ? Delta Pro has more of a kick/punch ? Definimax has ? what is the intended use (home theater ,home hi-fi,dj,studio ) ?
                      donc

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                      • #12
                        Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                        Jeff,

                        Would it be OK to build the Delta Pro version into a floor stander to squeeze some more low end extension out of the speakers? Are Eminence T/S data reliable? If not, would you be willing to share the T/S data?

                        Thanks,

                        Duc

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                          I would build it taller and integrate a dedicated sub into the base.
                          "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                          http://www.diy-ny.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                            Originally posted by Wushuliu View Post
                            It would be nice to know how any of those diysoundgroup designs compare to known diy efforts. The AVS forum thread is insular with not much feedback aside from the designers themselves. Jeff's contribution is the only one I feel comfortable considering. Hopefully he will elaborate on the design and share his thoughts.
                            There are threads from people that built some of the other designs and everyone seems extremely happy with them. The reason you don't see a lot more is because all of these kits are just now being finished up.....and the thread has been pretty much contained to AVS. Have no worries, the speaker designers are all very good and the kits wouldn't be posted unless they were satisfied.

                            I'm still uploading information on all the different models, including the ones from Jeff, and tweaking the descriptions to giving more details on each speaker. There are a couple more 8" models coming along with some dual woofer models, and floor standers using the Dayton Designer Series woofers. The site looks pretty rough right now because I've been spending most of the time getting flat packs and other things like subwoofer boxes ready to go. But it should all be running smooth shortly.

                            The prices on these kits are extremely low for the quality of components and the speaker that's built. I'm honestly not sure what else can compete with these, especially in their price range. Sound quality, dynamincs, constant directivity, and their ability to play at pretty much any volume you need in your house is unreal. There was a massive amount of engineering that went into the SEOS model.....of course done by people much smarter than I am. So it's nothing like "horn" style speakers you may have heard in the past.

                            With most parts coming from Parts Express, and with them helping to keep prices as low as possible, it's a win/win situation for everyone and I'm happy to be involved with the project. Just bear with me for the next week or so as I get caught up on packaging current orders placed and get all the matching flat packs organized. It's been a big undertaking.

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                            • #15
                              Re: So who's going to build Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave?

                              Originally posted by augerpro View Post
                              Jeff would you mind sharing your measurements?
                              I was wondering myself how low he crossed over. Looking back over Zilch's exercise with the Econowave Deluxe, I was thinking that a reduced crossover point and possibly steeper crossover to maintain sensitivity might provide some benefits for widening the vertical response window and better dealing with the Kappalite's peakiness around 2khz. The waveguide should have a peak load around 1.2khz so I guess it's just a matter of how low and loud you can go with the Denovo or DE250/DE500. It would be interesting to see how Jeff approached this and how well he was able to integrate driver phases.

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