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  • importance of a good amp

    I was going to title this "things you don't know until you know them"

    I've been running my Mini-Statements off my Onkyo HTR with something like 135 W/CH 8 ohm and 185 W/CH 4 ohm
    for about 5 years. I've always liked them, but felt that I should have built the full sized Statements, since the bass
    wasn't ever quite as "full" as I like.

    So recently I was testing a couple of old vintage amps with about 300 W/CH 4 ohms on the Mini-Statements.
    WOW. Gobs of deep, authoritative bass from those RS-180s. My wife said that the windows were rattling.
    Yello's "The Expert" sounded like it was hitting in the 20s.

    So, I learned - 180W in a HTR is NOT the same as in a good stereo amp.

    I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
    "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

    High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
    SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
    My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

    Tangband W6-sub

  • #2
    Re: importance of a good amp

    Yeah, little transormers the size of a thimbul can't provide the power, I don't car what the numbers on the spec sheet say...Problem with the modern "AVR" approach is the reality that you can't fit all that stuff in there and still have room for a 5 channel power amp. I'm actually quite surprised at how slowly the market is picking up high efficiency amplifier topologies given these limitations. They just keep putting all the "features" in there and put the transformer in whatever space is left. That is not right, it should be the other way around. Put the big transformer in there (or powerful SMPS) in there and build the receiver around it. Market demand I guess...

    I bet I could get that deep authoritative bass you like with my little 50W amplifier, but it has a 400VA transformer and 40,000uF power supply. You'd be lucky to find that power supply in a 5 channel AVR!

    It just dawned on me, I wouldn't be suprised if AVR manufacturer's roll off the bass in order to obtain higher power rating. 100W at 1kHz is a lot different than 100W at 20Hz.
    "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
    exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

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    • #3
      Re: importance of a good amp

      Yeah... good power supplies are pricey to build and most consumers seem to think they're not important enough to pay for.
      "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
      ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

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      • #4
        Re: importance of a good amp

        Originally posted by donradick View Post
        HTR is NOT the same as in a good stereo amp.
        I learned this a while back myself.. I was shocked!

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        • #5
          Re: importance of a good amp

          And it's not just the bass authority but also midrange clarity (not sure if that's the correct term).
          Craig

          I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

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          • #6
            Re: importance of a good amp

            I've got a Denon HTR NIB for my next setup that has pre-outs.
            Better believe it that I will use it with a dedicated 2 channel amp for the bass.

            I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
            "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

            High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
            SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
            My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

            Tangband W6-sub

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: importance of a good amp

              Originally posted by PWR RYD View Post
              And it's not just the bass authority but also midrange clarity (not sure if that's the correct term).
              Works for me. That's what I hear in "good" mids.

              I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
              "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

              High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
              SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
              My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

              Tangband W6-sub

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: importance of a good amp

                sorry for hijacking this, but what would be a good(say under 200-300$-less is better) 2 channel amp for fronts?

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                • #9
                  Re: importance of a good amp

                  Originally posted by manu et deo View Post
                  sorry for hijacking this, but what would be a good(say under 200-300$-less is better) 2 channel amp for fronts?
                  Gosh, now I'm uncomfortable....
                  I've got a couple for sale right now in the classifieds.
                  If you've got a preamp or other processor -
                  The Yamaha M-4 would be my first choice - very powerful, huge power bandwidth, very clean.

                  I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
                  "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

                  High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
                  SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
                  My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

                  Tangband W6-sub

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: importance of a good amp

                    I'm in total agreement with Don. In fact, I don't even use my HT receiver for music listening even though it's rated at 100w/channel. I've always liked old school Marantz and Adcom but they are not exactly budget buys especially if you get them recapped. In Kentucky, Aaron brought a Threshold S200....wow. Now that was a "good sounding" amp....and yeah, I can tell the difference. All amps are not the same, IMO.



                    Bryan K.

                    Midwest Audio Club

                    Speedster | Sub Attachť | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | CO‹GAR, COUGAR II and CO‹GAR JR | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

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                    • #11
                      Re: importance of a good amp

                      Originally posted by donradick View Post
                      Gosh, now I'm uncomfortable....
                      I've got a couple for sale right now in the classifieds.
                      If you've got a preamp or other processor -
                      The Yamaha M-4 would be my first choice - very powerful, huge power bandwidth, very clean.
                      right now im running a rx-667 and have always considered a separate amp for my fronts and maybe center someday

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                      • #12
                        Look for an amp that doubles its wattage from 8 to 4ohms.
                        "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                        http://www.diy-ny.com/

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                        • #13
                          Re: importance of a good amp

                          Originally posted by manu et deo View Post
                          right now im running a rx-667 and have always considered a separate amp for my fronts and maybe center someday
                          If that HTR has pre-outs and your mains can be bi-amped, a cheap upgrade is using the HTR for Mains mids-tweeters, and
                          the dedicated amp for woofers. (Woofers will use something like 10X the watts of mids and tweeters)

                          I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
                          "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

                          High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
                          SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
                          My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

                          Tangband W6-sub

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: importance of a good amp

                            I've got an RCA HTIB that I got as one of those longevity awards--where you have to choose between a clock, luggage and other fine gifts in the $150-$200 range :rolleyes:. It's rated at 1000W (RMS!). Yet the input wattage says 98W next to the power cord. *Sigh*
                            I actually just wanted to see if I could modify the circuitry and was hoping for a mainstream chipset. Unfortunately, the chipset is made by Tridentmicro, who doesn't give out detailed data on their chipsets without nondisclosure agreements and who just went through bankruptcy. I should have gotten the luggage :(
                            Those power ratings on AV receivers can be silly.
                            Free Passive Speaker Designer Lite (PSD-Lite) -- http://www.audiodevelopers.com/Softw...Lite/setup.exe

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                            • #15
                              Re: importance of a good amp

                              Originally posted by donradick View Post
                              If that HTR has pre-outs and your mains can be bi-amped, a cheap upgrade is using the HTR for Mains mids-tweeters, and
                              the dedicated amp for woofers. (Woofers will use something like 10X the watts of mids and tweeters)
                              the htr does 7.1 or 5.1 bi amp but my fronts do not

                              i saw this amp 100 at amazon says it will dp 150rms in bridged mode, for 90 a piece sounds like it could work

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