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$500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

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  • djkest
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Reread the OP and examined your pic. I think OS-MTM speakers would be great for your space. Spend the extra money on a compact 10" sealed sub with some EQ and a plate amp that you can tuck away somewhere. If that isn't an option, well, you could also think about the Triton MTM from Meniscus, as others have mentioned. I have heard the OSMTM and they are shockingly good for the price. DIY sound group, as you know, sells complete cabs.

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  • sonex
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Jejj Bagby's rs180 mtm in a mltl would come in under 500. I think there are 3 of us on this board building these now.
    Last edited by sonex; 04-26-2013, 10:25 AM.

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  • Jetfire
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    I did actually built the SR71. Build thread here.
    Last edited by Jetfire; 04-26-2013, 10:57 AM.

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  • fbov
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Indeed, what we're discussing here isn't beginner stuff if you want to go into details, but the basic effects are not complicated, and they provide a rational basis for choosing the proper variant among many speaker designs. Think of these as "perfectionist recommendations" not "minimum requirements or you'll be sorry."

    In both posts, I refer to a series of charts posted from Floyd Toole's book, Sound Reproduction.
    http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=34016&

    These charts show the effect of placing a free-standing speaker design:
    - away from walls, as the design is intended, with resulting flat FR (Fig 12.8a).
    - flush to the wall, where no BSC is required, so you see the full BSC bass rise (Figs. 12.8b and 12.9a). This "rise" in the bass is actually a "cut" in output at higher frequencies, so if designed for flush mounting (no BSC), the FR curve looks like 12.8a, except it's 6dB higher in output.
    - mounted in a cabinet, Fig. 12.11a, there's still no BSC required, so the bass rise is unchanged, but we now have dips at ~200Hz and 600Hz due to reflections from the nearby edges arriving out of phase with the direct sound from the speaker. Out-of-phase waves cancel, so you hear an absence of sound at that frequency.

    So in your application, you have two requirements to achieve optimum, native sound quality, before any electronic EQ correction:
    - a no-BSC design, intended for flush mounting
    - a high degree of mechanical integration between the speakers, the TV between them, and the cabinets beside them. The fewer edges, the fewer the dips and the better the sound.

    Note that these are driven by your room and usage plan, and so apply to any speaker design you choose to use. I already noted that Audyssey-like routines are like well suited to correcting BSC issues, and I will admit that dips in FR are very hard to hear. That's what makes them "perfectionist recommendations."

    As to XO changes, either you're comfortable with soldering electronics or you're not. The XO changes are mainly for BSC... which room correction in the AVR can address. It's a matter of how much correction; some of us like to minimize the corrections.

    Have fun,
    Frank

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  • Jetfire
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by fbov View Post
    Have you read Zaph's SR71 page?
    http://www.zaphaudio.com/SR71.html

    "An option for reduced BSC is provided for those who might find a "warm" or "heavy" tonal balance with the default crossover. I recommend..."
    and
    "Do not place these speakers right up against a wall, or on a bookshelf.... If you do, you might need to try the reduced BSC crossover.... Please be aware that wall or bookshelf mounting is a severe compromise and generally all rectangular box speakers will exhibit ragged midrange response in that case. "

    This last bit about ragged midrange is referring to a box hung on a wall, which has exactly the same dips "like Fig. 12.9a without the BSC bump" to quote my prior post. If mounted flush with the wall, no such raggedness occurs.

    So... may be doable if you don't mind varying component values and tweeking the XO a bit. Note that any good AVR with room correction, like Audyssey, will clean up the broad peaks, like BSC, but will have no benefical effect on narrow dips as caused by diffraction.

    Have fun,
    Frank
    Thanks to you and everyone for helping me through this....I promise to do a build log with lots of pictures!

    Remember, I'm new to this hobby! I did read that these are not set up as bookshelf speakers. I also noticed that these speakers are set up for off axis listening, one of the only benifits for my install restrictions. I could have the front baffle flush with the front of my TV and the cabinet, would this help with ragged midrage response?

    I have never build a XO, and it looks like the SR71 kit from Madisound comes with pre-assembled XOs. I'm not clear on what you meant by "narrow dips caused by diffraction".....please help me out?

    I am going to buy an AVR with Audyssey, would the room correction combined with flushing the baffle get me back towards a "sweeter spot" for this speaker?

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  • fbov
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by Jetfire View Post
    Copy that. I guess I was hoping that someone (or Madisound) had a variant XO for the SR71 for near-wall.
    Have you read Zaph's SR71 page?
    http://www.zaphaudio.com/SR71.html

    "An option for reduced BSC is provided for those who might find a "warm" or "heavy" tonal balance with the default crossover. I recommend..."
    and
    "Do not place these speakers right up against a wall, or on a bookshelf.... If you do, you might need to try the reduced BSC crossover.... Please be aware that wall or bookshelf mounting is a severe compromise and generally all rectangular box speakers will exhibit ragged midrange response in that case. "

    This last bit about ragged midrange is referring to a box hung on a wall, which has exactly the same dips "like Fig. 12.9a without the BSC bump" to quote my prior post. If mounted flush with the wall, no such raggedness occurs.

    So... may be doable if you don't mind varying component values and tweeking the XO a bit. Note that any good AVR with room correction, like Audyssey, will clean up the broad peaks, like BSC, but will have no benefical effect on narrow dips as caused by diffraction.

    Have fun,
    Frank

    Leave a comment:


  • Jetfire
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by djkest View Post
    I haven't heard the SR-71 so I couldn't say.

    Check this out though: a little over budget but this would give you some clean power that would be really hard to beat, and would make your movie experience more theater-like. No problems getting lots of volume with an AVR either.

    http://www.diysoundgroup.com/wavegui...ion12-kit.html

    No disrespect meant to the other designers, but this one seems to be one of the best of the waveguide speaker kits available.
    The cabinet wouldn't fit into my tiny spot...........I'm not a fan of it's aesthetics, I'm sure the lil' lady wouldn't like them much. Thanks though.
    Last edited by Jetfire; 01-28-2013, 08:48 PM. Reason: Spelling

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  • Jetfire
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by johnastockman View Post
    I live a bit south of Chehalis, but since there's no non-big-box audio stores anywhere outside of the Seattle area anymore, I make my way up there about once a year to see some old friends at Speakerlab and Hawthorne. I also stop in at Definitive Audio and listen to some of the esoteric speaker brands. I know when I come home and listen to my Statement Monitors that they completely outperform the 5-figure+ per pair speakers at Definitive.

    John A.
    I drive by Speakerlab and Hawthorne every day on my way to work, small world.

    If I stick with the SR71, I'll skip the "upgraded XO parts". Your right the WAF is unfortunate, but that's what I'm workin' with. Glad to hear your DIY speakers are killin' some comercial ones!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jetfire
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by fbov View Post
    I've read through the thread and I don't see the single most important bit of advice:

    you need an on-wall/in-wall/no BSC design and the difference is all in the crossover.
    Copy that. I guess I was hoping that someone (or Madisound) had a variant XO for the SR71 for near-wall.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jetfire
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by kku View Post
    I was in the same boat as you are. SR 71 is good choice. But then I discovered Usher UA701 kit from parts express. The Usher driver has deeper low freq. extension and the kit has bigger cabinet(0.75 cu. ft.). I think they are all out of stock for the kits that were on clearance. But the parts count is almost the same. The Usher woofer is costlier than the Seas woofer ($92 vs. $129) but worth every extra penny IMHO.

    Here is the link for Usher kit.
    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-952

    You can just buy separate parts if you dont want to pay $328 per speaker. The kit manual has list of all the parts that are in the kit. It was also a featured speaker project a while ago on PE.
    I couldn't find a kit without the cabinet or a parts list. Looks like a good one though. I'm not really worried about getting lower since I'll be adding a sub for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnastockman
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how many projects get the axe or how some amazing-sounding speakers don't make it into the discussion because of female asthetic desires. Really too bad, as many designs that can offer a better HT and music experience just won't fit into a woman's idea of quality vs size or looks. I think you're right about the D8's, kinda hard to sell with the woman-approval-factor. With adding a sub later, the SR's would be a good fit for the WAF and offer a high-quality listening experience. You'd have to do a personal A/B side-by-side to be able to hear any improvements going with the upgrade caps...and maybe not at all. They use good quality poly caps for the standard version, and even switching back and forth between ones with and ones without, most wouldn't be able to hear a difference. I've tried this with many different speakers over the years, enlisting friends to help. Now, it wasn't a completely scientific type of test, but an A/B comparo using a speaker selector switch. Even with my experienced ear, I could not reliably pick the expensive cap in the tweeter circuit. Take the money you'll save and put it into your subwoofer fund. Those SR-71 drivers are very nice. The XO freq. where they crossed in the tweeter tells a lot about that tweeter. I've heard commercial speakers and DIY ones that use that tweeter, and it's an excellent unit. I've used the 25-series Seas tweeter in a couple different 2-way designs with the XO being designed by an experienced forum member and couldn't have been happier with the overall SQ. If you've never heard a well-designed DIY type of speaker before, you're in for a very pleasant surprise. The SR's look like a good fit for both excellent SQ and something that will pass the WAF test. When you're ready to add in a sub, be ready for a similar myriad of choices, but still better than you could buy OEM.

    I live a bit south of Chehalis, but since there's no non-big-box audio stores anywhere outside of the Seattle area anymore, I make my way up there about once a year to see some old friends at Speakerlab and Hawthorne. I also stop in at Definitive Audio and listen to some of the esoteric speaker brands. I know when I come home and listen to my Statement Monitors that they completely outperform the 5-figure+ per pair speakers at Definitive.


    John A.

    Leave a comment:


  • fbov
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by Jetfire View Post
    ...I end up with 10" wide x 45" high x 19" deep. Here is a picture of the TV area:
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]32772[/ATTACH]...
    I've read through the thread and I don't see the single most important bit of advice:

    you need an on-wall/in-wall/no BSC design and the difference is all in the crossover.

    I attached your room picture; note the gap between the TV and side cabinets where you want to put speakers. To me, that looks just like Toole's Fig. 12-11a, frequency response for a free-standing speaker on a shelf. This is what you get if you take the vast majority of recommendations received on this thread.
    http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=34016&

    The goal is the flat response of Fig 12.8a, in your location. Fig 12.8b is what you'll get if you use a free-standing design in your intended location. You need to do two things (not just one) to address these issues
    - use a no BSC design, so frequency response is flat from 1KHz to the bass roll-off (12.8A vs B)
    - make it flush with the TV screen and cabinets, so there are no diffraction-producing edges. (like Fig. 12.9a without the BSC bump)

    My first DIY speaker was a CC. I built it with a free-standing XO, and put it on a shelf below the TV. Boomy, bloated, overpowering bass was the result; immediately obvious even to my untrained ears. I change XO to an in-wall design and all of a sudden, it blended right in. Not a subtle difference to my ears...

    And most all design "families" include an in-wall accomodation, if not a wholely new XO. I've built Continuum and it's one of the exceptions; free-standing only.

    I will also suggest MTMs as their form factor fills your space well, they're louder and more sensitive, and thdispersion pattern works quite well for HT applications. Mine are 9" baffles so you have enough space, and they include the full family, down to a "value" option.
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/ne...reply&t=235836
    Scroll down to post #30 for in-wall XO that I built using the D3004/602010 tweeter. these are the mains I built...
    http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13969
    ...but since you don't want BSC, you'd build this (or the Modula version if so inclined):
    http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22626

    NatP standalones were ~$400/pair for parts last year. The Modula MTM CC in-wall, about $350 for the single speaker. Here's a link to a similar build:
    http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...#axzz2JIogV9mN

    HAve fun,
    Frank

    Leave a comment:


  • kku
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    I was in the same boat as you are. SR 71 is good choice. But then I discovered Usher UA701 kit from parts express. The Usher driver has deeper low freq. extension and the kit has bigger cabinet(0.75 cu. ft.). I think they are all out of stock for the kits that were on clearance. But the parts count is almost the same. The Usher woofer is costlier than the Seas woofer ($92 vs. $129) but worth every extra penny IMHO.

    Here is the link for Usher kit.
    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-952

    You can just buy separate parts if you dont want to pay $328 per speaker. The kit manual has list of all the parts that are in the kit. It was also a featured speaker project a while ago on PE.

    Leave a comment:


  • djkest
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by Jetfire View Post
    Have you heard the Mandolin compared to the SR71? I'm drawn to the SEAS speakers, always been curious.

    Movies and music. I bet these will be used for movies 75% of the time. I haven't thought about how much power or type of amplification. In the future, I will move to seperate amps/pre-amp. For now, I'm thinking about using receiver power. I haven't picked up a receiver yet, but I'm considering a Denon AVR 3808CI based on features, reviews, and used price. I'm looking for a receiver that I can hook into my home network via CAT5 and has HDMI hook ups.
    I haven't heard the SR-71 so I couldn't say.

    Check this out though: a little over budget but this would give you some clean power that would be really hard to beat, and would make your movie experience more theater-like. No problems getting lots of volume with an AVR either.

    http://www.diysoundgroup.com/wavegui...ion12-kit.html

    No disrespect meant to the other designers, but this one seems to be one of the best of the waveguide speaker kits available.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jetfire
    replied
    Re: $500 for my first DIY speaker project..........help and questions!!

    Originally posted by djkest View Post
    I like the Mandolin design from Jeff Bagby. It's a 2-way available from meniscus. However, if I was going to do it again, I'd be interested in an MTM design for higher sensativity / output. Great imaging, detail, and clarity. I really enjoyed the Overnight Sensation MTM, but something bigger might be nice too.

    Movies, music, or both? How loud do you like it? What kind of amplification are you thinking about?
    Have you heard the Mandolin compared to the SR71? I'm drawn to the SEAS speakers, always been curious.

    Movies and music. I bet these will be used for movies 75% of the time. I haven't thought about how much power or type of amplification. In the future, I will move to seperate amps/pre-amp. For now, I'm thinking about using receiver power. I haven't picked up a receiver yet, but I'm considering a Denon AVR 3808CI based on features, reviews, and used price. I'm looking for a receiver that I can hook into my home network via CAT5 and has HDMI hook ups.

    Leave a comment:

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