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  • r-carpenter
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Originally posted by lorenmjones View Post
    Well if I ever get them looking presentable I will bring them to a DIY gathering. I'd love to hear some of the awesome looking projects people are constantly building here. I'd love to hear your arrays with those 18" Faital's

    The woofer distortion measurements are something I don't have and haven't seen anywhere. I trust B&C having used them in the pro side of things. Their designs are very solid and have always performed well for me.

    Zaph did measure the midranges previously.

    This link has some distortion info on the tweeter. It has respectably low distortion, ESP the upper order stuff.

    http://www.beyma.de/fileadmin/seiten...TPL-150_en.pdf
    Thanks.
    I did see Zaph's measurements of the mid. They are quite admirable.
    My line array are unfortunately unmovable. The mid/tweeter towers are around 300lb each and with Faitals it'll probably almost double.
    If you are in NY, definitely drop me a PM, drink some beers and shoot speaker building breeze and give it a listen.

    Leave a comment:


  • greywarden
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    IIRC pete has posted HD measurements on those beyma tweeters.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Well if I ever get them looking presentable I will bring them to a DIY gathering. I'd love to hear some of the awesome looking projects people are constantly building here. I'd love to hear your arrays with those 18" Faital's

    The woofer distortion measurements are something I don't have and haven't seen anywhere. I trust B&C having used them in the pro side of things. Their designs are very solid and have always performed well for me.

    Zaph did measure the midranges previously.

    This link has some distortion info on the tweeter. It has respectably low distortion, ESP the upper order stuff.

    http://www.beyma.de/fileadmin/seiten...TPL-150_en.pdf

    Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
    very interesting project! Wish I was closer and could give it a listen.
    One thing that I am personally missing would be an individual test data on the drivers. Would be very curious to look at the distortions of that mega ribbon beast as well as the woofer.

    Leave a comment:


  • r-carpenter
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    very interesting project! Wish I was closer and could give it a listen.
    One thing that I am personally missing would be an individual test data on the drivers. Would be very curious to look at the distortions of that mega ribbon beast as well as the woofer.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    I know this is kind of silly but I've been perseverating on a name for this build for quite some time now. Does anyone have a brilliant suggestion besides "huge loud box hated by wives"?

    Leave a comment:


  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Part of that obvious change is the directivity of the tweeter. It does fire a laser beam at higher frequencies. While that big AMT offers unreal dynamics, the physical size does cause it to narrow dramatically up high. That's one reason we stuck a smaller rear mounted AMT on our Arcus monitor. It definitely improves the off axis sound and smooths things audibly between seated and standing positions.
    Yeah. A 6" long line source beams quite a lot as the frequency goes up. The Beyma spec is 30 deg vertical by 80 deg horizontal but if you look at their beam width vs frequency plot it is narrower than even the 30 deg spec in the top octave. I've seen some guys make them into dipoles.

    But that's a good observation that the loss of HF when standing is prob as much due to the tweet as it is to the MTM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pete Schumacher
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Originally posted by lorenmjones View Post
    Yes the vertical lobing is less pronounced at greater distances. My couch is probably 10 feet back from the speakers in my current room. At that distance there is a very noticeable change from sitting to standing. If I am standing 6 feet behind the couch though standing is fine. I'm moving in July and will have more distance to the listening position then which will be good I think. I will definitely try a lower crossover to see how much that changes once I have 6 channels of amplification to play with active DSP implementation.

    Dennis did an awesome job. The tonal balance is very similar to his Philharmonic series but these are a much more direct and focused sound. I'm sure that is due both to less directionality of the forward radiating component of his speakers but even more so to the open back mid and treble he uses. So these don't throw that huge expansive soundstage. Much more pinpoint kind of presentation. They image well, but it's just not that big voluminous soundstage. I'm actually happy cuz that is my preference.
    Part of that obvious change is the directivity of the tweeter. It does fire a laser beam at higher frequencies. While that big AMT offers unreal dynamics, the physical size does cause it to narrow dramatically up high. That's one reason we stuck a smaller rear mounted AMT on our Arcus monitor. It definitely improves the off axis sound and smooths things audibly between seated and standing positions.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Originally posted by lhwidget View Post
    Congratulations Loren, these are a fantastic implementation of high quality/high effeciency drivers. Your craftsmanship is top notch, and I'm sure Dennis made the magic happen with the crossovers.

    I'm curious about any lobing problems. With near field systems, just the size of the components (vertical height of the MTM) would cause problems. But in the far field, I'm thinking that at 10' to 15' even lobes generated by the large ctr to ctr distance would have a tendency to overlap and blend. Also, the primary lobe, even if it is initially small will have a chance to expand vertically.

    I'm thinking they wouldn't be noticable at all with normal head movements while listening.

    Have you noticed anything?
    Yes the vertical lobing is less pronounced at greater distances. My couch is probably 10 feet back from the speakers in my current room. At that distance there is a very noticeable change from sitting to standing. If I am standing 6 feet behind the couch though standing is fine. I'm moving in July and will have more distance to the listening position then which will be good I think. I will definitely try a lower crossover to see how much that changes once I have 6 channels of amplification to play with active DSP implementation.

    Dennis did an awesome job. The tonal balance is very similar to his Philharmonic series but these are a much more direct and focused sound. I'm sure that is due both to less directionality of the forward radiating component of his speakers but even more so to the open back mid and treble he uses. So these don't throw that huge expansive soundstage. Much more pinpoint kind of presentation. They image well, but it's just not that big voluminous soundstage. I'm actually happy cuz that is my preference.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Originally posted by lhwidget View Post
    Congratulations Loren, these are a fantastic implementation of high quality/high effeciency drivers. Your craftsmanship is top notch, and I'm sure Dennis made the magic happen with the crossovers.

    I'm curious about any lobing problems. With near field systems, just the size of the components (vertical height of the MTM) would cause problems. But in the far field, I'm thinking that at 10' to 15' even lobes generated by the large ctr to ctr distance would have a tendency to overlap and blend. Also, the primary lobe, even if it is initially small will have a chance to expand vertically.

    I'm thinking they wouldn't be noticable at all with normal head movements while listening.

    Have you noticed anything?
    Yes the vertical lobing is less pronounced at greater distances. My couch is probably 10 feet back from the speakers in my current room. At that distance there is a very noticeable change from sitting to standing. If I am standing 6 feet behind the couch though standing is fine. I'm moving in July and will have more distance to the listening position then which will be good I think. I will definitely try a lower crossover to see how much that changes once I have 6 channels of amplification to play with active DSP implementation.

    Dennis did an awesome job. The tonal balance is very similar to his Philharmonic series but these are a much more direct and focused sound. I'm sure that is due both to less directionality of the forward radiating component of his speakers but even more so to the open back mid and treble he uses. So these don't throw that huge expansive soundstage. Much more pinpoint kind of presentation. They image well, but it's just not that big voluminous soundstage. I'm actually happy cuz that is my preference.

    Leave a comment:


  • lhwidget
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Congratulations Loren, these are a fantastic implementation of high quality/high effeciency drivers. Your craftsmanship is top notch, and I'm sure Dennis made the magic happen with the crossovers.

    I'm curious about any lobing problems. With near field systems, just the size of the components (vertical height of the MTM) would cause problems. But in the far field, I'm thinking that at 10' to 15' even lobes generated by the large ctr to ctr distance would have a tendency to overlap and blend. Also, the primary lobe, even if it is initially small will have a chance to expand vertically.

    I'm thinking they wouldn't be noticable at all with normal head movements while listening.

    Have you noticed anything?

    Leave a comment:


  • Pete Schumacher
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Originally posted by lorenmjones View Post
    Oh, I forgot to mention how nice it is to have dynamic ability limited only by the amp and your ears. Everything is effortless.
    I know exactly how you feel!!!

    It's great having a speaker that can totally wow you with only 40W at your disposal.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Oh, I forgot to mention how nice it is to have dynamic ability limited only by the amp and your ears. Everything is effortless.

    Leave a comment:


  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Here is a little more stuff from some pics. The two response plots are the sims from the measurements Dennis did with the drivers in cabinet in his room. Anyway the one with the lower crossover has a big diffraction dip at the bottom of the tweeter's range so that is a big part of why he chose the higher crossover frequency.

    These are the crossover schematics. 29 is the woofer, 30 is the mid and 31 is the tweeter (in case you couldn't tell which I'm probably too dumb to do just looking at them).

    Click image for larger version

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  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    That last pic in the post above is the method I used to get the woofer template done. Here are a couple more of the pics of that. The pic of the test cutout that has all the slop/extra space is one I did before I got the centering pin to use with my guide bushing base for the router. The difference isn't subtle.Click image for larger version

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    Loren

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  • lorenmjones
    replied
    Re: Active 3 way, pro-sound drivers

    Wow, I know I've been gone quite a while on this thread. One month today. In that time I have gotten the speakers completed (well just MDF boxes but functionally completed).

    I am really really VERY pleased with how they sound. My most succinct description is that they are like listening to a very good pair of headphones with the welcome addition of real palpable impact. I think they have a very up front presentation, not to say they have a forward tonal balance because they certainly don't. They do however have a very direct presentation with excellent detail and clarity. It is really impressive to me how much of a difference a three way with a woofer handling the entire bass range vs a sub/sat system makes on things like a bass played with a bow in classical music or any number of other things. The highs are airy and extended with all kinds of presence but no hint of brightness or sibilance. I am loving the paper cone mids. The bass section was in an alignment tuned to 22 hz that gave a gently sagging response from 45 hz down to 20 hz then cut off steeply below that. The 3-4 db difference in that 20 to 45 hz range was definitely audible compared to Dennis's Phil 3's which are flat anechoic down to about 25 hz or better. I changed to a shorter vent that has an Fb around 27 that has a flat response down to F3 at 25. That made a noticeable difference for the better on music, but the DEEP infra bass stuff will probably be missed on movies. When I get to active DSP implementation I could go back to the deeper tuning and dial in some EQ to fill in that 20 to 45 hz range while still doing over 111 db down to 18 hz.

    Anyway, here are some pics of what they look like and of some of the build steps.

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    Loren
    Attached Files

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