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  • Newest Adventure - Preview

    Well, here's my newest adventure -
    Take the best midwoofer I have found: the SB Satori MW16P and mate it with a special OEM RAAL 70-20XR tweeter.

    So far, from my inituial measurements I can't see any reason for the criticism I have heard for these tweeters. Its measured performance has exceptional at this point. I am looking forward to listening with crossover in place.





    Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

  • #2
    Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

    The absolute best tweeter on the planet that doesn't use Plasma for a membrane.

    That should make for an absolutely awesome sounding build Jeff.

    The only criticism comes from those who look at the price and justify why they'd never spend that much for a tweeter.
    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
    "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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    • #3
      Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

      The absolute best tweeter on the planet that doesn't use Plasma for a membrane.

      That should make for an absolutely awesome sounding build Jeff.

      The only criticism comes from those who look at the price and justify why they'd never spend that much for a tweeter.
      yawn
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      • #4
        Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

        Looks awesome! Especially when that system was crossover over to some capable subs. Would love to be able to hear these and also the Kairos to see what a RAAL sounds like in comparison to a soft dome / ring radiator tweeter.

        When I was scrolling down I was secretly hoping it was a 3-way. :p

        The manufacturer's information is interesting. They say that you only need 1 capacitor and no resistors on the RAAL to achieve an acoustic 4th order at 1800 Hz. May not need an Lpad either. Very interested to see what you do with this. I'm guessing it's going to be a Meniscus kit?
        -Dan
        Mandolin Curved Cabinet Floorstanding; Dayton Reference 18" sealed Subwoofer; Sealed 12" Dayton Reference Subwoofer ; Overnight Sensation builds

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        • #5
          Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

          jeff,

          interesting project. i hope you will be at the MWAF with a version of it. i have listened to the raals in several different designs. i am ready for the flame throwers, but i have not liked the raals in most designs. i think that the 20's have worked best with ceramic drivers in the speakers that i have heard. the Marten line of speakers are very good. so i am looking forward to hearing them. Pete i usually agree with what you say but calling it the best tweeter may be stretching things. the SS BE, 7100, 7000, 6600, the dynaudio esotar, i am a big fan of the hiquphons. measurements are nice and the raal measures well, but there is more to music than measurements.

          looking forward to hearing them.

          craig
          craigk

          " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

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          • #6
            Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

            Originally posted by djkest View Post
            Looks awesome! Especially when that system was crossover over to some capable subs. Would love to be able to hear these and also the Kairos to see what a RAAL sounds like in comparison to a soft dome / ring radiator tweeter.

            When I was scrolling down I was secretly hoping it was a 3-way. :p

            The manufacturer's information is interesting. They say that you only need 1 capacitor and no resistors on the RAAL to achieve an acoustic 4th order at 1800 Hz. May not need an Lpad either. Very interested to see what you do with this. I'm guessing it's going to be a Meniscus kit?
            Yes, a kit for Meniscus. The manufacturer's info is correct.... if you have a very wide enough baffle and are targeting 93dB sensitivity. Since my baffle is 8.5" wide and the overall sensitivity is 85 - 86 dB I need to shape the response a bit which requires a couple more parts, but it is certainly not a complex crossover because the tweeter is exceptionally flat.

            When using a single capacitor it becomes a second order electrical crossover because the internal transformer is equivalent to a parallel inductance, with the impedance dropping to 0.1 Ohm at low frequencies. When this is added to the inherent second order acoustical / mechanical roll-off of the ribbon, a single cap will yield a fourth order acoustic roll-off.

            I will play these head to head with the Kairos. I will post my honest impressions once I am finished.

            Jeff
            Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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            • #7
              Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

              Originally posted by craigk View Post
              jeff,

              interesting project. i hope you will be at the MWAF with a version of it. i have listened to the raals in several different designs. i am ready for the flame throwers, but i have not liked the raals in most designs. i think that the 20's have worked best with ceramic drivers in the speakers that i have heard. the Marten line of speakers are very good. so i am looking forward to hearing them. Pete i usually agree with what you say but calling it the best tweeter may be stretching things. the SS BE, 7100, 7000, 6600, the dynaudio esotar, i am a big fan of the hiquphons. measurements are nice and the raal measures well, but there is more to music than measurements.

              looking forward to hearing them.

              craig
              My limited listening experience was with the Salk Soundscapes, which I did the bass section on, they use the RAAL tweeter. I felt at the time that it was the most accurate and natural high frequency reproduction I had ever heard in any speaker. It had a level of transparency and ability to disappear that I had never heard before. I have used Esotars and Hiqs before, I personally would not rate either as high.
              Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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              • #8
                Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
                yawn
                [ATTACH=CONFIG]35873[/ATTACH]

                You may yawn all you want Roman, but so far its measurements are extraordinary. I have never seen anything that measures this flat in response. Tomorrow, if I get a chance, I may try to take some more complex measurements wth distortion and CSD included. Today I was just capturing the woofer and tweeter together on the baffle so I could determine the offset and begin some crossover sims.

                Jeff
                Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                • #9
                  Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                  My question, while I chuckle a bit at Roman's yawn, is in regards to the "special OEM RAAL 70-20XR". Can that driver even be bought for DIY? The Raal site seems to suggest otherwise. Not that I'm not interested in reading what you measure and learn, I'm just putting it in perspective.
                  Audio: Media PC -> Sabre ESS 9023 DAC -> Behringer EP2500 -> (insert speakers of the moment)
                  Sites: Jupiter Audioworks - Flicker Stream - Proud Member of Midwest Audio Club

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                  • #10
                    Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                    Originally posted by craigk View Post
                    jeff,

                    interesting project. i hope you will be at the MWAF with a version of it. i have listened to the raals in several different designs. i am ready for the flame throwers, but i have not liked the raals in most designs. i think that the 20's have worked best with ceramic drivers in the speakers that i have heard. the Marten line of speakers are very good. so i am looking forward to hearing them. Pete i usually agree with what you say but calling it the best tweeter may be stretching things. the SS BE, 7100, 7000, 6600, the dynaudio esotar, i am a big fan of the hiquphons. measurements are nice and the raal measures well, but there is more to music than measurements.

                    looking forward to hearing them.

                    craig
                    Exactly. What sets the RAALs apart isn't easily distinguished in measurements. They measure very well, very consistently. So do lots of tweeters.

                    I've heard the Be Scans, the ring radiators, their flagship domes, the Accuton diamond dome and SEAS top of the line, and none of them gets out of the way of the music like a RAAL.

                    Jeff described them appropriately. They disappear better than any dome, AMT or ribbon that I've heard. They can be bested by those domes if and when you need to cross at a lower frequency. But there is no better "sounding" tweeter for 2000Hz on up than the 70-20XR.

                    We've used it with Accuton's top of the line 6" Neo Ceramic mid-woofer and the Usher 8948A. We've used it with Audio Technology's C-Quenze mids and midwoofers. We've paired up the 70-10D with some paper cone mid-woofers. Regardless which high quality woofer is used, the RAAL always seems to deliver and offer effortless details. The RAAL offers the least coloration, the least "character" to the sound, and brings more realism to the experience than any other tweeter I've heard..

                    Yeah, I'm a fan in case you didn't notice.
                    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                    "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                      looking forward to hearing you compare / contrast the two. one good thing is we always get and honest answer from you Jeff, and that means a lot.
                      craigk

                      " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

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                      • #12
                        Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                        Originally posted by JasonP View Post
                        My question, while I chuckle a bit at Roman's yawn, is in regards to the "special OEM RAAL 70-20XR". Can that driver even be bought for DIY? The Raal site seems to suggest otherwise. Not that I'm not interested in reading what you measure and learn, I'm just putting it in perspective.
                        The kit will be available to anyone, even if the tweeter itself is not.
                        Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                        • #13
                          Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                          Originally posted by craigk View Post
                          looking forward to hearing you compare / contrast the two. one good thing is we always get and honest answer from you Jeff, and that means a lot.
                          I expect the RAAL to have the more transparent top end, but the key for me will be how well it integrates with the woofer in the crossover region; does it possess the same dynamics in this region, or at least enough that I can't tell it is lacking anything.

                          The funny thing so far is, despite the large cabinet, it is noticably top-heavy when you move it around because the tweeter weighs so much more than the woofer does. It feels kinda odd because you don't expect that. The Satori is a very light woofer though with its neo motor, and the RAAL is a very heavy tweeter.

                          Jeff
                          Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                          • #14
                            Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                            is it time for some extra weight to the bottom of the cab ? i would hate to hear about a "humpty dumpty" experience. i have seen it happen and it can be hard to put humpty together again sometimes. :eek:
                            craigk

                            " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

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                            • #15
                              Re: Newest Adventure - Preview

                              Originally posted by craigk View Post
                              measurements are nice and the raal measures well, but there is more to music than measurements.

                              craig
                              the problem is the measurements themselves. if you can hear a difference, you can absolutely measure it. so, what is it that is so great about the RAAL that no one has been able to measure? Step response? I've not seen that on nearly any DIY speakers. The only place I've seen step response is stereophile and Linkwitz's site. Not that I'm saying step is the bees knees, but if these RAALs are indeed the bees knees, then maybe a step response or some other measurement not typically performed could illuminate the dark matter.
                              ErinsAudioCorner.com

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