Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

[donc]

not to hi-jack someone elses thread , i thought i would start a new one on this matter . there are a few things to consider here .are they worth it ? your first thought would be obviously not ! you could build three 15"SEOS Sentinels for the same price as a pair of Raal 140's .sound quality -have you heard anything even close to the performance of a Raal ? cd/waveguide combos can meet the spl but what about sq ? "Raal's can show weakness in your system !" ,that tells me they must be damn accurate ,i would think anyone who spends $1200 on a pair of tweeters has probably spent enough on their system that it has few if any weaknesses . i myself have said i would never spend that kind of money on tweeters yet i find myself trying to find something that compares but for less money, i want my cake and eat it too , but i have yet to find that .i am no expert ,this is only what i have observed ,the experienced can put their knowledgable comments in if they wish-should be interesting !
donc

[johnnyrichards]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

The vast majority of recordings out there probably will not benefit from a tweeter no better than a RS28, and a woofer no better than a basic RS180 or the equivalent from any manufacturer.

Voicing decisions will play at least as large of a role as driver choices.

Most cabinets are not built as well as they could be, leaving a lot of performance on the table.

Most crossovers are not optimized, leaving a lot of performance on the table.

Most rooms are not optimized, leaving a lot of performance on the table.

The raw drivers are rarely what is at fault in any given design, but spending more and more on the drivers without addressing all of the other flaws in the engineering of a design keeps the money flowing.

This may come across as jaded, but unless you are absolutely certain you cannot squeeze any more performance out of an existing design than there is no reason to buy more expensive drivers regardless of their reputation. So no, for most people it isn't worth it to buy the RAAL or the Raven or whatever ribbon/unobtanium/geewhizz driver becomes the next flavor of the week. Very, very few of us possess the time, resources and learned skill set to take advantage of ethereal drivers and would do well to keep milking better performance out of the cheaper stuff. It is amazing how good a $15 tweeter can sound if attention to smart engineering is applied.

The world class drivers are not any less forgiving of bad engineering decisions than a Goldwood. Granted, we hear with our eyes (and increasingly I believe with our wallets - and that is not exclusive to commercial audio) so improvements are very likely to happen by simply spending more.

So unless you spend your leisure time listening to nothing but Diana Krall SACD on expertly designed systems, I suspect the ultra high end stuff may indeed be a waste of money. Personally, if I cannot enjoy the music I love on my speakers, then the design is a failure regardless of budget.

[Jay1]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

Well said Johnny.

[killa]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

+1 Most of the music I listen too is not recorded well enough to justify uber drivers.

[turn2]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

The vast majority of recordings out there probably will not benefit from a tweeter no better than a RS28, and a woofer no better than a basic RS180 or the equivalent from any manufacturer.

Voicing decisions will play at least as large of a role as driver choices.

Most cabinets are not built as well as they could be, leaving a lot of performance on the table.

Most crossovers are not optimized, leaving a lot of performance on the table.

Most rooms are not optimized, leaving a lot of performance on the table.

The raw drivers are rarely what is at fault in any given design, but spending more and more on the drivers without addressing all of the other flaws in the engineering of a design keeps the money flowing.

This may come across as jaded, but unless you are absolutely certain you cannot squeeze any more performance out of an existing design than there is no reason to buy more expensive drivers regardless of their reputation. So no, for most people it isn't worth it to buy the RAAL or the Raven or whatever ribbon/unobtanium/geewhizz driver becomes the next flavor of the week. Very, very few of us possess the time, resources and learned skill set to take advantage of ethereal drivers and would do well to keep milking better performance out of the cheaper stuff. It is amazing how good a $15 tweeter can sound if attention to smart engineering is applied.

The world class drivers are not any less forgiving of bad engineering decisions than a Goldwood. Granted, we hear with our eyes (and increasingly I believe with our wallets - and that is not exclusive to commercial audio) so improvements are very likely to happen by simply spending more.

So unless you spend your leisure time listening to nothing but Diana Krall SACD on expertly designed systems, I suspect the ultra high end stuff may indeed be a waste of money. Personally, if I cannot enjoy the music I love on my speakers, then the design is a failure regardless of budget.

This forum should have a "LIKE" button for exceptional posts.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

It's obvious from what Johnny posted that he's never heard one.

Lesser recordings still sound better on the system using the RAAL over the Vifa DQ, even in a less than optimal room.

Great recordings can sound amazing through a system using a RAAL. That's not to say every RAAL system is excellent. Some are better implemented than others. I've little doubt that what Jeff B comes up with will be fantastic.

Is it worth it? Yes, definitely. They are expensive, hand made, quality tweeters that have expert engineering behind them.

Is it for everyone? Of course not. It is for the person who is after the most accurate, lifelike, and natural sounding speaker system that they can possibly build.

They are much better sounding than any compression tweeter. The better AMTs come close, but they're in the same price range.

Yeah, they can reveal some weaknesses in your system/recordings, but isn't that what part of this hobby is all about? People who do this just so they can listen to their MP3s can do so with cheap stuff and be completely satisfied. But a serious hobbyist is always trying to push the limits with something, otherwise it gets rather boring. Unless they branch out into the upper tier, they simply don't understand what they're missing. Changing spark plugs, air cleaners, mufflers, might get you a couple horsepower, but it's only when you go for the serious upgrades, intake manifolds, turbos, headers, transmissions, that you begin to experience real performance. You still have to drive it on the street with other cars, but once in a while it feels great to bury your foot and pin your shoulders back.

When you have better speakers that deliver nuance with ease and without sacrificing dynamics, you might find yourself trying out other music that would never have piqued your interest before, simply because it "sounds" so wonderful, even if it's not top 40 or gets radio play. I still have my classic rock, and modern progressive stuff that gets play, but I also find myself listening to "audiophile" recordings for the beauty of the sonic landscape they paint. Orchestral stuff, folk and jazz, anything acoustic, simply sounds absolutely superior on the highly resolving RAAL systems I get to hear on a regular basis. But even AudioSlave and Tool come across better.

[Jeff B.]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

That is essentially the same question as, "Ferrrari's, are they worth it?"

There is no definite answer to questions like this.

[craigk]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

Pete,

reguardless of my thoughts about the Raal tweeter, i agree 100%. i think that if you are going to put money into a system, after purchasing more music, speakers will do more to improve overall sound quality than anything you can do. most equipment is good enough now days to enjoy most speakers. you might not be able to drive them to 115 db, but i really do not want to any way, well most of the time. there is always going to be a weak link in any system, you just have to decide what you can and can not live with. this is where you can not get caught up in chasing that system that does not exist. you will never be happy, and waste a lot of money along the way, that would resemble me a few years ago.

[johnnyrichards]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

It's obvious from what Johnny posted that he's never heard one.

And it is obvious you missed my point completely. How many high end speakers have you heard that disappointed you, Pete?

The rest of your post is condescending garbage - and quite frankly reads like ad copy. I think the tag monsters are correct about you, Pete.

[killa]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

dq! Won't take much to beat that IMO. For dynamics I'd go for pro drivers.

[jhollander]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

While I do lust after those tweeters, I do like the part of this hobby where the soupped-up Chevy beats the Ferrari.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

And it is obvious you missed my point completely. How many high end speakers have you heard that disappointed you, Pete?

The rest of your post is condescending garbage - and quite frankly reads like ad copy. I think the tag monsters are correct about you, Pete.

I've heard plenty of high end speakers that are disappointing Johnny. I've heard plenty of decent sounding speakers that use lesser quality components too. Like you said, it's the sum of the engineering into a project that will determine its success.

I didn't miss your point Johnny; it was the same dismissive stuff that anyone who has not bothered to use a top quality component says about why it isn't justified.

I noticed that you picked on the RS180 and RS28 as the stopping point. Why would anyone pick either of those over the Goldwood? Why would anyone choose to use the HDS Peerless over the Dayton DS? Could it be something to do with performance?

[johnnyrichards]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

While I do lust after those tweeters, I do like the part of this hobby where the soupped-up Chevy beats the Ferrari.

John, that happens a lot when the eyes are closed. Our hearing is no less subject to confirmation bias than our palates. Ultra-high end consumerism is in it's last stages thanks to the internet and a very few courageous individuals willing to put their senses to a blind test.

I thought one of the aspects of Black Box that could have proved intriguing was asking each of the listeners to write down what they thought the driver complements were - size, baffle arrangement, cone materials. Would have been interesting.

[killa]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

But even AudioSlave and Tool come across better.

That is because audioslave and tool were recorded much better than a lot of music was in their genre. :p

[johnnyrichards]

Re: Raal tweeters-are they worth it ?

I've heard plenty of high end speakers that are disappointing Johnny. I've heard plenty of decent sounding speakers that use lesser quality components too. Like you said, it's the sum of the engineering into a project that will determine its success.

I didn't miss your point Johnny; it was the same dismissive stuff that anyone who has not bothered to use a top quality component says about why it isn't justified.

I noticed that you picked on the RS180 and RS28 as the stopping point. Why would anyone pick either of those over the Goldwood? Why would anyone choose to use the HDS Peerless over the Dayton DS? Could it be something to do with performance?

I was not being dismissive Pete, I was challenging the "plug and play magic" implications that the RAAL invokes among some of it's users. I have heard enough mixed reviews of the RAAL to know without a doubt that it is not a magic bullet, your hyperbolic ad copy notwithstanding.

I chose the RS because it is insanely popular around here, that is all. I also qualified it by implying other manufacturers could be substituted. That is side stepping the issue, though.