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3-Way/Side-Firing Woofer - Measurements for XO Design

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  • PEB
    replied
    Re: 3-Way/Side-Firing Woofer - Measurements for XO Design

    Hi Robert. I'm keenly interested in your project, because it mimics what I am going through right now. I can give you advice based on my experience. But first some questions:

    Can you provide us with a 1-2M SPL of your midrange in its acoustic cavity?http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...-8-quot-woofer

    Can you take your proto sub outdoors for ground plane measurements? If so, then measure at 1-2M distance. (Let us know if you need tips on the GP technique.) Take 4 curves, one for each face of the sub. This will give us an idea of the SPL with woofer and port summing, and show the performance for front- or side-firing. If your SW can average curves, then average the 4 curves and that will give us an idea of the performance in your room at the lower frequencies.

    Do you have means to modify your test cabinet to move the woofer down low?

    Leave a comment:


  • ReissM
    replied
    Re: 3-Way/Side-Firing Woofer - Measurements for XO Design

    Looks like a fun project. You're torn between:
    1. keeping the woofer and mid close to each other for phase reasons, and
    2. putting the woofer close to the floor for increased boundary augmentation (and also to minimized floor bounce issues.)


    Hmmm... let me throw some ideas at you. You can dismiss them if you don't like 'em. It might already be too late for my suggestions because you said that you already have a protoype box built.


    A. How about lowering the crossover point to 100Hz where the wavelengths are much longer (11.3 feet) and more omnidirectional.

    B. Then you can physically locate the woofer lower in the cabinet to minimize the floor bounce problems, while still having the phase integrate reasonably well with the mid. (because of the longer wavelengths). Do some quick trogonometry and convince yourself that the path-length differences (and thus phase) of your woof & mid will be mitigated by going with an 11.3 foot wavelength.


    Choosing 100Hz reduces the amount of midrange frequencies coming out of the side firing woofer, (At 250Hz, it may be more difficult to integrate the side firing woofer's output with the midrange driver's output. At 100Hz it will be easier.)

    I would suggest a 3rd order or 4th order network on the woofer to simplify the acoustic/phase integration with the midrange driver. You may have to add a notch filter to the woofer's x-over network to make the response behave... but that's a small price to pay to overcome the other issues mentioned above.

    Try splicing the NF and FF curves, import them into Jeff's PCD, and design a steep filter that only lets the woofer sing to 100 Hz. Be aware of the filter "Q" during this step... you don't want nasty peaking. (maybe a notch filter will help with this.)

    Get the polarity (phase tracking) correct from woofer to mid, then keep the mid's polarity fixed and determine the tweeter's polarity for best integration with the mid. You can run hundreds of trials with Jeff's PCD before you attempt to build the crossover. Best of luck on this design.

    Leave a comment:


  • rpb
    replied
    Re: 3-Way/Side-Firing Woofer - Measurements for XO Design

    Originally posted by Robert Dunn View Post
    Ok, guys, I'm sure that I'm over-thinking things but I haven't designed a side-firing woofer before. Hopefully someone can set me straight. Please bear with a rather lengthy explanation as I meander around to the questions.

    I'm working on a three-way in a tall box. Basically, it's a 4' tall, 10" wide, 14.5" deep box with the mid located near the top of the box and the woofer on the side roughly half way from the floor. The woofer is ported on the front of the box near the floor. FWIW, the woofer is an SB29NRX75-6 (spec sheet is here).

    I have constructed a prototype box, taken measurements, and started working on the XO. Taking the mid and tweeter measurements is easy enough but I'm not sure what woofer measurements to use in the XO design.

    The below shows measurements for NF woofer (green), NF port adjusted for relative woofer diameter (mustard), and summed response (blue).

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]37226[/ATTACH]

    I then adjusted the combined NF down to a theoretical 1 meter SPL shown below (purple). I also took a 1 meter woofer/port measurement on the mid axis (red) primarily to get an idea of the distance/delay (thinking of acoustic centers here) between the mid and woofer. The delay seems to be slightly more than 8".

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]37227[/ATTACH]

    [Note that all of these are MLS measurements (at 2.834V with a calibrated mic) and actual SPL is, therefore, 3dB higher.]

    The low-frequency limit of the FF woofer/port measurement is a bit under 200Hz. The NF curve is theoretically useful below roughly 500Hz (based on D'Appolito's white book if I did the math correctly). The on-mid-axis measurement is, of course, more than 1M from the mic.

    Finally, I plan to cross-over to the mid at 250Hz or below. While wavelengths are long here, I'd like to keep things in phase as much as possible.

    So here are the questions: Should I design the XO using the NF curves? Or should I take FF on-axis woofer measurements and splice with the NF for XO design? Given that low order filters will allow significant woofer output (side-firing and reflecting off of whatever surfaces are nearby) into, say, the 1kHz+ region, what acoustic order would you target?

    I'm sure that more questions will come to mind just as soon as I post this. In the meantime, thanks for any advice.
    I've never done a side firing woofer, but my opinion is that second or third order slopes should be used. I think that the integration will be somewhat hit or miss anyway, so I'd want as little overlap as possible, and the woofer restricted from going very high. The filter will probably cause some big issues in the woofer response around 100 hz. I'd minimize that as best possible, and let the blend at 250 be off a bit if that's the way it works out. I think tonal balance should outweigh the blending. You may get lucky, or brilliant, and get everything working perfectly, but If that doesn't happen, I'd minimize the damage of an altered bass response if possible. A slight dip at 250 hz probably won't be noticable. A 2 dB bump at 100 hz might. I don't mean for this post to sound negative, but I realize this will not likely be real easy, so it may mean choosing the lessor of two evils. You may actually need to do this by ear after trying the simulated filter. The 250 range is very room, and room location dependent.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3-Way/Side-Firing Woofer - Measurements for XO Design

    Ok, guys, I'm sure that I'm over-thinking things but I haven't designed a side-firing woofer before. Hopefully someone can set me straight. Please bear with a rather lengthy explanation as I meander around to the questions.

    I'm working on a three-way in a tall box. Basically, it's a 4' tall, 10" wide, 14.5" deep box with the mid located near the top of the box and the woofer on the side roughly half way from the floor. The woofer is ported on the front of the box near the floor. FWIW, the woofer is an SB29NRX75-6 (spec sheet is here).

    I have constructed a prototype box, taken measurements, and started working on the XO. Taking the mid and tweeter measurements is easy enough but I'm not sure what woofer measurements to use in the XO design.

    The below shows measurements for NF woofer (green), NF port adjusted for relative woofer diameter (mustard), and summed response (blue).

    Click image for larger version

Name:	W+P NF Before FF Adjustment.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	122.8 KB
ID:	1185133

    I then adjusted the combined NF down to a theoretical 1 meter SPL shown below (purple). I also took a 1 meter woofer/port measurement on the mid axis (red) primarily to get an idea of the distance/delay (thinking of acoustic centers here) between the mid and woofer. The delay seems to be slightly more than 8".

    Click image for larger version

Name:	W+P Adjusted FF & W+P On M Axis.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	114.2 KB
ID:	1185134

    [Note that all of these are MLS measurements (at 2.834V with a calibrated mic) and actual SPL is, therefore, 3dB higher.]

    The low-frequency limit of the FF woofer/port measurement is a bit under 200Hz. The NF curve is theoretically useful below roughly 500Hz (based on D'Appolito's white book if I did the math correctly). The on-mid-axis measurement is, of course, more than 1M from the mic.

    Finally, I plan to cross-over to the mid at 250Hz or below. While wavelengths are long here, I'd like to keep things in phase as much as possible.

    So here are the questions: Should I design the XO using the NF curves? Or should I take FF on-axis woofer measurements and splice with the NF for XO design? Given that low order filters will allow significant woofer output (side-firing and reflecting off of whatever surfaces are nearby) into, say, the 1kHz+ region, what acoustic order would you target?

    I'm sure that more questions will come to mind just as soon as I post this. In the meantime, thanks for any advice.
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