listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

[r-carpenter]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

This is absolutely no knock on the OP because what he did to compare the speakers is exactly what I would have done, but I've ALWAYS been curious as to why when people post about differences between caps, coils, resistors, wires, amps, etc., someone ALWAYS criticizes the non use of double blind testing. Yet when we talk about differences between speakers, NO ONE ever raises the issue of double blind testing. I've raised this a handful of times before, but have never gotten a response.

I think OP is not stating his listening impressions as an absolute but rather as general preference. But you are correct, without establishing testing conditions, knowing objective response of each speaker system, we could be talking about different barbeque sauces and may be establish that one is sweeter then the other with about the same degree of validity.

You may actually like the idea of the Iron Driver where speaker systems are SPL matched, listened "blind" and objective data is posted later.

[Nowd]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

I guess I should add that I'm not necessarily a strong supporter of double blind testing even having a degree in engineering, but there are some here that are lightning quick to declare any comparison between anything other than speakers to be invalid if the comparison did not involve double blind testing. Quite frustrating when I read those posts since they apparently are applied selectively. :(

[maynardg]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

I've been doing this for a long time. Time enough to know that our ears are pretty good instruments, especially with practice and learning. Listening is a skill. People vary in how well they can exercise that skill. My skill increased steadily, except lately, when I think the underlying acuity is failing a bit with age. I have watched the listening skills of individuals on this board change over the years. Double blind not needed to listen for differences in drivers, just a good balance of natural acuity combined with practice.

I agree with that frustration, BTW. Never heard a really great speaker designed by measures and modeling alone. "Prove it" is an uninformed and not particularly thoughtful demand.

Thanks Augerpro for your observations.

This is absolutely no knock on the OP because what he did to compare the speakers is exactly what I would have done, but I've ALWAYS been curious as to why when people post about differences between caps, coils, resistors, wires, amps, etc., someone ALWAYS criticizes the non use of double blind testing. Yet when we talk about differences between speakers, NO ONE ever raises the issue of double blind testing. I've raised this a handful of times before, but have never gotten a response.

[Pete Basel]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Nice work, thanks for posting your impressions!

I think that what is important is that while it is obvious that lower distortion is better,
beyond that it is difficult to know from distortion curves how the distortion will be
perceived. I always like to listen to new drivers and am often surprised by the results.

The SEAS T25C001 is an old favorite of mine and the SS HDS is another that I'm
considering for new designs. Wish they were made with smaller face plates, and
probably neo magnets.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

dumb question, but who carries the "Discovery SS15"? When I do a search nothing seems to come up.
thanks,
nikkoluvr

Now that you guys mention it, I think I started abbreviating Scanspeak to "SS" and now it snuck in here looking like a model number. Sorry about that. It is the Scanspeak 15W/8434G00 Discovery.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Just realized I was using the anodized aluminum NE19VTC for these bookshelf speakers (I am using the titanium VTT in my BBV2). I've changed the original post to reflect that. On that subject though, today I pretty much settled on using the titanium VTT over the ano. alum. VTC and fabric VTS. The VTT and VTC are very similar, but after a lot of back and forth, the VTT seems a bit smoother. The VTS was noticeably more open and spacious than the metal domes, but just had too much sizzle and hardness to it, even crossed at 3.5khz.

[nikkoluvr]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

super, thanks! now I can see what we are comparing. Interesting write up Brandon, I appreciate it. It was good to see a comparison to some commercial offerings as a reference.
nikkoluvr

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Appreciate the research and writeup... and good to see you "back" again...

Yeah back for a very short time, but I have a fire lit under my a$$. This project and the BBV2 will be finalized soon. After that I'd like to do a 3 way reference system using a Peerless 830884 8" woofer, HDS or TLabs tweeter, and switchable upper portion to compare the BG Neo8 versus the TangBand 3" dome mid. The only way to pull that off though is to get a cnc shop cut what I need. I have about a 4 month window to do it, after that I won't have access to my shop tools for some time. I've been wanting to narrow down a good compression driver for my No Quarter project. I already switched to a SEOS 12" to get better matching of the acoustic centers. Now I just need to settle on a driver.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Playing with some new drivers combos. Matched the new Dayton RS150P and Peerless Nomex to the Vifa NE19. Crossed at 3.3khz LR4. The RS150P is well behaved. A little clinical for my tastes. 3.3khz is too high - the cone breakup comes through as a hiss. I'll be taking the crossover down when I move to different tweeters. The Nomex is still a beauty, very similar to the SS Discovery, musically. I think the Discovery is a bit better musically, but is not as well behaved when pushed as the Nomex. Speaking of the Discovery, the more I listen to it the more I like it. It is just more 3D, more lush and involving than the others. Though the Nomex is real close and the ZA14 is not far behind either. It does get a little wobbly before those two though. As a pure mid it might be the best choice, as a 2-way it would really be dependent on the design and what tradeoffs the designer would accept. I have an SBNRXC15 woofer that will get pulled into the rotation next.

Speaking of which the next round will be the above woofers matched to the CSS LD22C and SB SB26STCN tweeters.

The Discovery and flat baffle NE19 versus a waveguided NE19 is a big surprise. They sound totally different. I'm liking the waveguide the more I listen, but I'm still not sure which tradeoffs in sound I like better yet. More to come.

Nik Brewer has cut my bass bins for the 3-way I planned. Couple more tests with the TB 75-1558SE in various baffles and that project will move forward. I'll probably end up waiting on Transducer Labs for the tweeter though.

Thought I'd include a plot of some of the speaker responses to demonstrate how closely they are crossed and level matched for all of this:

[Jim Holtz]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Hi Brandon,

The NE19 looks like a poor mans Hiquphon on paper. Did you do any testing that you can share with us?

Thanks!

Jim

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Well Zaph tested some of my NE19's, so if you want measurements look there. The small flange size makes it critical to flush mount perfectly or you'll get a ripple in the response. They have a very noticeable increase in distortion at a certain point, I've found 3.3khz LR4 to be the best compromise to alleviate that. I've never heard a Hiq, but from what I've heard about it, I would guess the NE19 is not in that league. My subjective view is in the first post of the thread. I'll have more to say after I compare them to the other tweeters.

[craigk]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Hi Brandon,

The NE19 looks like a poor mans Hiquphon on paper. Did you do any testing that you can share with us?

Thanks!

Jim

this is much closer to the hiquphon than the NE19, but neither come close to it. this is a very nice tweeter for the money though. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_CA...es/22TAF-G.pdf

[Jim Holtz]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Well Zaph tested some of my NE19's, so if you want measurements look there. The small flange size makes it critical to flush mount perfectly or you'll get a ripple in the response. They have a very noticeable increase in distortion at a certain point, I've found 3.3khz LR4 to be the best compromise to alleviate that. I've never heard a Hiq, but from I've heard about, I would guess the NE19 is not in that league. My subjective view is in the first post of the thread. I'll have more to say after I compare them to the other tweeters.

Hi Brandon,

I didn't realize Zap had tested these. They are a bit underwhelming.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

this is much closer to the hiquphon than the NE19, but neither come close to it. this is a very nice tweeter for the money though. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS_CA...es/22TAF-G.pdf

Hi Craig,

The 22tff is more to my liking. I'm not a big fan of metal domes.

Jim

[craigk]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

I usually am not a fan of metal either, but this is an exception for me. the 22tff is a very good performer also.