listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

[johnastockman]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Yeah, I have been admonished through private e-mails about my experiences in retail audio; the measurements we did on speakers, and how I leaned to, and perfect, my note-taking abilities. I didn't rely on one method alone, as I'd take notes at each stage and I made sure to use a variety of electronics. Taking speakers home and using my own gear, along with discussions with other employees and their personal systems, was how I refined my notes. The only science involved was with the room we measured in and the equipment we used to perform the measurements. Our service tech was a genius and could fix gear that other service outlets could not, or would not. He was the one who studied the process and took instruction on how to do it. Yes, times and places can change the results, along with experience and familiarity with the equipment. But it was repeatable and reliable. Just like the process I took when I was taking notes. I think I was conscientious and thorough enough to end up with conclusions that, while not the DB method, were as accurate as could be produced w/o the huge expenses of the DB testing. Close is pretty good in those situations, especially when you can remove the manufacturers marketing-speak, hyperbole and see behind the aesthetics and finishes. Which was the reason the owner was so adamant about measuring and note-taking. Reading through the OP, I appreciated the time and effort it takes to come up with impressions and conclusions, even if it's one person's observations and experiences. It still has value to others.


John A.

[jonpike]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Wondering which Peerless Nomex you're comparing with the RS150P? Might they be the ones I have languishing around for too long? You're going to get me motivated yet!

Though I am very interested in the P series, too... great to hear commentary on all these drivers and tweeters, keep 'em coming!

[nikkoluvr]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Hi Craig, do you like the 22TAF/G better than the RS28A then? I have some RS28A speakers, and they sound pretty nice.
thanks,
nikkoluvr

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Wondering which Peerless Nomex you're comparing with the RS150P? Might they be the ones I have languishing around for too long? You're going to get me motivated yet!

Peerless 832873

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Yeah, I have been admonished through private e-mails about my experiences in retail audio; the measurements we did on speakers, and how I leaned to, and perfect, my note-taking abilities. I didn't rely on one method alone, as I'd take notes at each stage and I made sure to use a variety of electronics. Taking speakers home and using my own gear, along with discussions with other employees and their personal systems, was how I refined my notes. The only science involved was with the room we measured in and the equipment we used to perform the measurements. Our service tech was a genius and could fix gear that other service outlets could not, or would not. He was the one who studied the process and took instruction on how to do it. Yes, times and places can change the results, along with experience and familiarity with the equipment. But it was repeatable and reliable. Just like the process I took when I was taking notes. I think I was conscientious and thorough enough to end up with conclusions that, while not the DB method, were as accurate as could be produced w/o the huge expenses of the DB testing. Close is pretty good in those situations, especially when you can remove the manufacturers marketing-speak, hyperbole and see behind the aesthetics and finishes. Which was the reason the owner was so adamant about measuring and note-taking. Reading through the OP, I appreciated the time and effort it takes to come up with impressions and conclusions, even if it's one person's observations and experiences. It still has value to others.


John A.

Thanks for the encouragement!

[craigk]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Hi Craig, do you like the 22TAF/G better than the RS28A then? I have some RS28A speakers, and they sound pretty nice.
thanks,
nikkoluvr

If forced to pick, I like the 22TAF/G better. let me stick this in the mix though. if I was building a 3 way I would pick the 22TAF/G, if building a 2 way I would pick the RS28, most of the time. I can think of a few exceptions to that though.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

So I've been listening to the SB26STCN and LD22C, both mated to the 15cm Scan Discovery woofer, for the last couple days. Started auditioning at 2.8khz LR4. Both are very good, and I'm not sure which I like better-or could live with longer-but I'm starting to lean toward the SB26STCN. It is CLEAR. The phrase 'bell-like clarity" come to mind. Nice presence, sparkle and tone. The LD22C is drier. Gives up some clarity and tone to the SB26STCN, but I think over time is the more non-fatiguing sound. And that is where I'm stuck. The SB26STCN will definitely impress out of the gate with it's clarity and big image, but sometimes it seems too much in my lively room. The LD22C's drier/hazier sound would never fatigue. I should mention these qualities are relative to each other (with the exception of the big clarity of the SB) and not so much absolute qualities. IOW no one should take this as the LD22C is not a detailed or clear tweeter. It is. Just not like the SB. Both are very well behaved, with no strained or shriek sound that many small format with non-existent chambers have. They behave very well really. When they are pushed to misbehave, the SB starts to get very forward, the LD22C gets busy sounding with some hash/strain, but both are graceful compared to many tweeters. No scream or shriek. No sizzle.

Comparing to the HDS (at 2.8khz still), the HDS seems sort of a middle ground between the two. Which would be perfect to me, although it has its own misbehaviors too. A slightly strained or pinched sound on some material. Dropping to 2.4khz on all tweeters and things change considerably. The BIG CLARITY of the SB is indeed making me cringe when I switch back and forth. The HDS comes into its own compared with the other two as being big and clear like the other two, but more refined and well behaved. The LD22C sounds like it is working harder, getting a little busy.

So right now I'm narrowing in on where the tweeters like to be crossed, and do some massaging of the SB response to see if I can tame it a bit without losing its great clarity and tone. I think an experienced designer willing to tweak may in the end prefer the SB. Newer designers who want to measure, design for flat, and be done will love the CSS LD22C. Both are a bargain.

Next I'm going to compare to the NE19VTC, and also compare the SB15NRX to the Scan Disco and RS150P. There are definitely some designs that will result from these excellent drivers. I've pretty much finalized the final baffle designs:



I also started comparing the NE19 on a waveguide. No definitive opinion yet, the sound was so different. At first I thought the WG version was messed up somehow because the loudness was quite different, but the impedance and response looked ok. I bumped the level up 2dB and suddenly they sounded much better. Switching back and forth, the flat baffle is open and spacious, the WG sounded little. More switching, the WG sounds more relaxed and more dynamic, but still sort of closed in, while the flat baffle is spacious, but splashy. More switching and more music the WG is definitely more controlled, and integrates well with the woofer, the flat baffle sometimes sounds like separate drivers playing sound. And that is about where my auditioning has progressed. The WG has some real pluses, but the spaciousness is a minus right now, so I can't say which I like better. However, I am still auditioning these in mono, my experience with more controlled directivity designs tells me that things might change a lot with the spaciousness when run in stereo. When you sit in the sweet spot of a high-ish DI design the image really snaps into focus and size, more so than conventional designs where all that treble/upper midrange is getting thrown wide.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Comparing the Scan Discovery 15W to the SB Acoustics SB15NRX is interesting. They both sound very excellent so far LR4 @ 2.8khz. I find the breakup of the SB to be not so benign, I would say it is required to suppress that breakup, otherwise a hissy “shh” sound can get through on some material, and at higher volumes. After I programmed a notch (just to match the Scan roll off, not as a bottomless sink) for that it was much better, but still there a bit, probably harmonic distortion tickling that area. The bass is more solid and more defined versus the Scan. I think the Scan is just a bit sweeter and somehow more 3D. The SB sounds more consistent from one song to the next, sometimes the Scan sounds like the clearly better driver, then the next song it just doesn’t. I really go back and forth on which I like better. If it was for a design without a sub I think the SB is a no-brainer – provided the breakup is really sunk. As a mid I think I’d probably go with the Scan. Really makes me wonder how the pure mid 15M Discovery with the phase plug is.

The Aurum Cantus AST2560 has just arrived to see if I like the sound well enough for a 3-way I’m building right now. Also the Silverflute 14cm is on the for a hopefully excellent match with the SB26STCN. And the B&C 8CXN51 project will be done for the next round too.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Anyone use both the Silverflute 14cm and Peerless 830656? If so, which had the cleaner top end when crossed at 2.8khz or so?

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Another question for you guys: say you working with a coax driver where the acoustic center of the tweeter was some distance behind the woofer's, and when crossed LR4 the sum at the crossover has a big null, so flipping the tweeter's polarity to opposite results in smooth response. Will the response at all angles behave the same whether you flip the tweeters polarity to opposite versus adding delay to the woofer and having the same polarity? Is the phase flip and delay equivalent I guess is what I'm asking? Seems to me it should be 6 of one, half dozen of another...

[bill poster]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

wd love to know how the SB29RDC-C000-4 and the smaller faceplate version fare against those tweets.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

I'm not real big fan of ring radiators

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Had a chance to play with the Aurum Cantus AST2560 air motion tweeter. I took the felt off the back, built small enclosure behind maybe 2" deep, and filled it with that denim stuffing from HD. Here is the response on 8" x 14" baffle from the Dayton .38cf cabinet that I've been using:



The dip at 3khz and peak at 4-5khz is baffle diffraction and will be easily corrected on a baffle for a final design. I've only been able to compare to the Peerless HDS, both crossing 2.5khz LR4 and matched to the Scan Disco woofer I've been using (and growing very fond of). These are very well behaved tweeters. No weird resonances, no sibilance or splashiness, just very calm. Decently open sounding. I think it gives up a bit of musicality *at times* to the HDS, but only in the areas where the HDS excels past everything I've heard anyway: bells, plucked strings, *some* female vocals and piano. But everywhere the HDS falls short, the AST2560 is just playing along calmly. Integrates well with the woofer and doesn't bring attention to itself. I would say better behaved than maybe even the RS28A, but more open and dry sounding.

Played with the Silverflute 14cm to pair with the SB26STCN and I don't think there is a better sounding woofer for <$50. Really good, just open, smooth, and with good bass. Yeah high frequency non-linear distortion ultimately limits it, but not easily, and not as much as you'd think versus much higher priced woofers like the SB 15NRX. Definitely going to have a cheap design coming with this woofer for friends dipping their toes into good audio.

Using the SB SB26STCN tweeter with the Fountek FR88 in my Bosebuster sequel is a done deal. Love it. You would think these would only be good at easy listening music while hard rock or metal would bring them to their knees, but playing some Tool or NIN really brings these little buggers alive!! I have them crossed to Silverflute 8" subs that impress the hell out of me for 12" cubes. I'll finish the documentation and publish that if anyone is interested.

I tried the poly cone SB15MFC for the heck of it to see how it compares to the paper version I already reviewed above. I like it better than the paper. It is a bit more liquid and fuller sounding, and before you write that off as detail killing warmth, I think it actually has a slightly more detailed midrange than the paper. OTOH the paper is just a bit better behaved on the high notes, but the presentation is just flatter and less real. Now these are aren't huge differences, I'm playing music for hours while switching back and forth via minidsp, so it is easier to the tell the difference. I had pretty much decided to go with the Scan Disco over the paper SB15NRX for musicality, but with this poly SB having some of those same strengths - maybe 1/3 of the way from the paper NRX to the Scan Disco- it makes the choice much harder since with the SB I'll also gain stronger and more defined bass than the Disco. More investigation needed there.

Only had about 30 minutes to listen to the B&C 8CXN51 coaxial driver. I love these pro drivers, just great percussion and liveliness. The tweeter seems a lot like other B&C polyamide CD's, which is to say at or near the top of the heap. But still not as well behaved or smooth as a really good hifi dome. I think the sweet spot might be 8" pro woofers matched with good hifi domes on waveguides. But still haven't spent enough time to see where to cross, or where to smooth the response so this is still very much a work in progress and I have high hopes.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Transducer Labs tweeters are on the way! Will be interesting to see how they compare to the AC AST2560 and Scan HDS (just replaced my Peerless HDS with the Scans on the off chance there has been a modification improvement). Hope they are a real step up and end up in my 3-way using the TangBand 3" dome mid.

And the final designs that resulted from this thread are being fabbed as we speak, here are about half the baffles:



Several flavors depending on what my friends decide to do, Silverflute woofer & SB26STCN in MTM, SBA poly cone & SB26STCN in TM and MTM, Scan Disco & HDS in TM and MTM, and possibly SBA poly cone & HDS in TM and/or MTM.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

happy happy joy joy