listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Nice! The write-up is excellent and the info and graphs are very thorough.
John A.

Thanks. I'm hoping to get some off axis plots up soon. I'm really impressed by these little Founteks, you would assume they would be best with non-stressing jazz or something, but they are really in their comfort zone with rock and roll. Amazing how much those little cones can move with little change in the character of the sound.

[johnastockman]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Nice! The write-up is excellent and the info and graphs are very thorough. I haven't seen many set-up/integration instructions, but yours are great. Love the effort and end-result.


John A.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

FINALLY got my BoseBuster sequel done and written up!! I've shortened the name to BBV2 so I don't get any hassle from Bose. Next I'll be finishing the Scan Disco TM and MTM, the other flavors after. My Soma Sonus site is now hosting my projects. Here is copy of that page:



BBV2

A small format sub/satellite system


The goal for this project was a small, high quality speaker that was shallow enough to be mounted on wall next to the thin LCD TV’s that are now common. The Fountek FR88EX was perfect for this project, with its low distortion and ability to fit in a truly tiny box (you can get the cones really dancing with little change in character). After several tweeters, I finally settled on the SB Acoustics SB26STCN-C000-4. This tweeter not only measures well, but is subjectively a very clear and open sounding tweeter. Crossover point is 2.8khz @ LR4. Here is the on-axis frequency response:


With reverse polarity to check phase integration:


The frequency response measurements consist of a far field measurement with a 6.5ms gate (no smoothing!!), merged to a near field measurement at 300hz, resulting in a quasi-anechoic response. The low frequency ripple is the noise floor of my shop.

Impedance:



Here is the crossover schematic:


Inductors are 18g on the woofer and 20g on the tweeter. The small resistance value shown with each inductor is the resistance of the inductor itself, not a separate resistor.

Baffle layout:


I built them with a depth of 3 ½” (external dimension) for that low profile mounting. However, if I were to put these on stands, or even wall mount next to something other than a super thin TV, I would probably go with a 4 ½” depth at least. Not for the bass (these are sealed), but having the rear baffle too close to the woofer can interfere with the sound quality, and if possible it would be better to get some breathing space for the woofers. Speaking of breathing space, the backside of the front baffle must be chamfered slightly (I used a Dremel):


I prefer to line the inside of the box with the denim insulation from Home Depot if possible, or the .75lb/cf sheets from Meniscus Audio. Obviously with a speaker this small I went with an external crossover, with all three front channels in a small box with connections on the outside for speaker wire. Home Depot or Lowes has some nice 16g in-wall 4 conductor wire that is perfect for connecting the crossover box to the speakers. I used Techflex over the wire for a clean look.

There are many very good woofers to use for the subs. In my case I had bought some nice 100w plate amps with boost at 30hz when a speaker manufacturer was getting rid of old stock (the Dayton Audio SA100 would probably be another good candidate), so I wanted to use a reasonably efficient woofer since I didn’t have a huge amount of power, and one that would be the best combination of small box size and extension. Since these would cross around 175-250hz I didn’t really want something with a terrible cone breakup either that could show up as non-linear distortion in the passband. The Silverflute W20RC38-08 was a perfect match for my requirements. Using dual Dayton Audio 8” passive radiators enabled a truly tiny box of only 12”x12”x12 ¾”! Using eleven 3/8” washers on each passive radiator (for an effective 30hz box tuning) and the included 6db boost @ 35hz of the plate amp, enabled really good extension considering the size of the woofer and box.


The following is how I initially integrated the sub and satellites. This is intended to be a quick way to get the system up and running. Obviously there is always a lot more one can do to get the smoothest bass and mid-bass response, and this is only one simple method.

First, I use two subs, one roughly at the foot of each main channel. In this case I tried REW as the measurement software since it’s free and easy to use. I use a mic from Cross Spectrum Labs. I didn’t bother with all the calibration of the measurement setup since we just want to see real-time in-room response for integration. Given that, it is pretty straightforward to setup: just open the RTA window, change the scale to go up to 2khz, 1/6 octave smoothing, select FFT Length 32768, Blackman-Harris 7 window, 8 averages, and that’s it. You might have to open the preferences and set the soundcard output if you get no sound, or the input if the mic doesn’t read anything. I aimed for a 175hz crossover, I’d like to experiment with 200-250hz in the future.

1) First set the levels of each channel (without subs on), I use a Radio Shack meter on A weighted Fast

2) in the AVR set the sub to “LFE+main” (this is on a Marantz, other brands should be similar)

3) set the sub crossover to 250hz

4) set the mains to small and crossover of 80hz

5) starting with just the left channel outputting pink noise (sub off), adjust the crossover until your -6dB point is at roughly 175hz:


My bass doesn’t appear to drop off quick, but that is due to the noise floor of my apartment being fairly high. Raising the signal will correct this, but I didn’t want to get my neighbors bent out shape!

6) Now running only the left sub, adjust its level to match the main. I like a little boost in my home theater bass though

7) Adjust the sub crossover until its -6dB is also 175hz:


8) Now turn on both the main and sub, and check integration:


9) Looks good so I moved on to the right channel

I was lucky and integration was very good right away. All I really have left is to fine tune the sub response. I’ll probably have to move it, requiring me to go through the integration again. Anyone who measures their setup knows how badly the front wall (often in combination with the floor and side wall) can really mess up the response in the 100-500hz area. One of the nice things about a sub/sat system crossed around 200hz is that you now have drivers with different crossover slopes, and in two different positions in the room, to smooth out the response. At this point I would switch to 1/12 or 1/24 octave smoothing to make sure I wasn’t smoothing over the ugly parts.

If one did not have good integration yet, you can adjust the phase on the sub, or adjust the delay setting in the AVR, or move the sub around, to get the proper phase match. Sometimes I find the response improvement to be ambiguous as I change settings. When that happens I like to run the main in reverse polarity, switch to 1/24 octave smoothing, and adjust delay/phase and sub placement to get the deepest null at the crossover. When you find it, you then switch the polarity back to normal and you should have excellent phase integration.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Was hoping to finish measurements on the 3-way (which I've dubbed Karnak's in homage to the incredible Egyptian temple) today, but looks like I'll need another day. I am extremely happy so far though. A LOT of baffle diffraction modeling, not just for the smoothest response, but a response that will work well with the drivers' response, and the intended crossover points. And a number of prototypes to verify the model. Not doing this well in the past has caused surprises after the speaker is built, and ultimately caused me to drop the project. Here are the results (6.5ms gate, no smoothing):

TangBand 75-1558SE:


BG Neo8:


Transducer Lab N26C:

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Had to take a couple weeks off from these projects to get the house ready to sell. Today I was able to finish off the construction of the last speakers, all ready for measurements this week. The ones below use the Peerless Exclusive 8", but I have an Aurum Cantus AC200/50C2C and SB Acoustics SB23NRX on the way so I can make versions with those for friends.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Nice builds Brandon. The SB MFC and SB26SCTN are both drivers I've been interested in. The MFC version seems mow behaved at higher frequencies than the NRX according to SB's plots, but you say the NRX is better behaved. That's interesting.
The BoseBuster looks neat.

I had to reread my comments because overall I think the poly is noticeably better behaved than the paper. The high frequency hash just doesn't show up like it does with the paper (caveat: when crossed at 2.8khz, crossing lower the difference may not be as noticeable). What I did notice though, was that on a couple songs where there was vocal high note, the paper stayed a little smoother. But I may have overstated that being the norm, overall the poly is better behaved just due to the breakup not being as noticeable (probably as non-linear distortion).

[jsr]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Nice builds Brandon. The SB MFC and SB26SCTN are both drivers I've been interested in. The MFC version seems mow behaved at higher frequencies than the NRX according to SB's plots, but you say the NRX is better behaved. That's interesting.
The BoseBuster looks neat.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

So after 5 months I have distilled my experiences in this thread down to some finished designs that I just finished constructing. First is super cheap and easy Silverflute W14 and SB26STCN MTM, using the 4 ohm drivers in series for an easy load:



For my buddies home theater, SB15MFC woofers and SB26STCN in MTM or TM:



For my own home theater I'll be using the ScanSpeak Disco 15cm and Scanspeak HDS in TM, here is the MTM:



I'll also be doing versions of the SB15MFC with Scanspeak HDS tweeter, no pics yet though.

New reference 3-ways for my music room. Peerless Exclusive 8" woofer (I'll also be doing a version with the SB 8"), Transducer Labs tweeter, and a mid to be selected after auditioning: either the TangBand 3" dome or BG Neo8:



And pending a writeup my BoseBuster version 2 are done finally:

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

The W20, probably the 8 ohm version, though I don't remember for sure. I went with passive radiators for a tiny box (12" cube). I'll be posting that info with the BoseBuster update within the month.

[nikkoluvr]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Hey Brandon, what Silver Flute driver are you using for the 8" sub?
thanks,
nikkoluvr

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

happy happy joy joy

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Transducer Labs tweeters are on the way! Will be interesting to see how they compare to the AC AST2560 and Scan HDS (just replaced my Peerless HDS with the Scans on the off chance there has been a modification improvement). Hope they are a real step up and end up in my 3-way using the TangBand 3" dome mid.

And the final designs that resulted from this thread are being fabbed as we speak, here are about half the baffles:



Several flavors depending on what my friends decide to do, Silverflute woofer & SB26STCN in MTM, SBA poly cone & SB26STCN in TM and MTM, Scan Disco & HDS in TM and MTM, and possibly SBA poly cone & HDS in TM and/or MTM.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

Had a chance to play with the Aurum Cantus AST2560 air motion tweeter. I took the felt off the back, built small enclosure behind maybe 2" deep, and filled it with that denim stuffing from HD. Here is the response on 8" x 14" baffle from the Dayton .38cf cabinet that I've been using:



The dip at 3khz and peak at 4-5khz is baffle diffraction and will be easily corrected on a baffle for a final design. I've only been able to compare to the Peerless HDS, both crossing 2.5khz LR4 and matched to the Scan Disco woofer I've been using (and growing very fond of). These are very well behaved tweeters. No weird resonances, no sibilance or splashiness, just very calm. Decently open sounding. I think it gives up a bit of musicality *at times* to the HDS, but only in the areas where the HDS excels past everything I've heard anyway: bells, plucked strings, *some* female vocals and piano. But everywhere the HDS falls short, the AST2560 is just playing along calmly. Integrates well with the woofer and doesn't bring attention to itself. I would say better behaved than maybe even the RS28A, but more open and dry sounding.

Played with the Silverflute 14cm to pair with the SB26STCN and I don't think there is a better sounding woofer for <$50. Really good, just open, smooth, and with good bass. Yeah high frequency non-linear distortion ultimately limits it, but not easily, and not as much as you'd think versus much higher priced woofers like the SB 15NRX. Definitely going to have a cheap design coming with this woofer for friends dipping their toes into good audio.

Using the SB SB26STCN tweeter with the Fountek FR88 in my Bosebuster sequel is a done deal. Love it. You would think these would only be good at easy listening music while hard rock or metal would bring them to their knees, but playing some Tool or NIN really brings these little buggers alive!! I have them crossed to Silverflute 8" subs that impress the hell out of me for 12" cubes. I'll finish the documentation and publish that if anyone is interested.

I tried the poly cone SB15MFC for the heck of it to see how it compares to the paper version I already reviewed above. I like it better than the paper. It is a bit more liquid and fuller sounding, and before you write that off as detail killing warmth, I think it actually has a slightly more detailed midrange than the paper. OTOH the paper is just a bit better behaved on the high notes, but the presentation is just flatter and less real. Now these are aren't huge differences, I'm playing music for hours while switching back and forth via minidsp, so it is easier to the tell the difference. I had pretty much decided to go with the Scan Disco over the paper SB15NRX for musicality, but with this poly SB having some of those same strengths - maybe 1/3 of the way from the paper NRX to the Scan Disco- it makes the choice much harder since with the SB I'll also gain stronger and more defined bass than the Disco. More investigation needed there.

Only had about 30 minutes to listen to the B&C 8CXN51 coaxial driver. I love these pro drivers, just great percussion and liveliness. The tweeter seems a lot like other B&C polyamide CD's, which is to say at or near the top of the heap. But still not as well behaved or smooth as a really good hifi dome. I think the sweet spot might be 8" pro woofers matched with good hifi domes on waveguides. But still haven't spent enough time to see where to cross, or where to smooth the response so this is still very much a work in progress and I have high hopes.

[augerpro]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

I'm not real big fan of ring radiators

[bill poster]

Re: listening impressions of some interesting drivers...

wd love to know how the SB29RDC-C000-4 and the smaller faceplate version fare against those tweets.