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  • thinner wall vs thicker wall

    Happy new year to all!

    Reading the article on the interview with David Smith got me intrigued especially what he said about cabinet construction.

    "I’ve spent a bit of my career in architectural acoustics and come to have a much better understanding of cabinet performance by looking at the architectural parallels. A great deal of work has gone into building and measuring walls assemblies to try and keep your neighbor’s noise out of your side of the world. This is really what we want to achieve with loudspeaker cabinets. We want sound from the back side of the speaker to stay in the box. In architectural terms we want the Transmission Loss to be high.
    Now energy loss through the cabinet walls isn’t the problem so much as that it isn’t a uniform loss. Every cabinet wall will have numerous panel resonances and at those resonances the panels become essentially transparent. As this is a narrow band phenomenon it will have a long time signature and can have an audible effect out of proportion to its energy level.
    Cabinet construction frequently gets to the heart of audiophile beliefs and common misunderstandings. In audiophile circles, if a little wall thickness is good then a lot is always better. The physics are actually at odds with that. We need to lower the Q of cabinet resonances and higher mass or higher rigidity diminish the effect of any damping we apply. Damping is the key and we want a high ratio of damping material to wall mass or rigidity. The upshot is that thicker cabinet walls will always raise the Q of resonances and make their damping harder to achieve. Raising the resonance frequencies with more rigid walls will seldom get them above audibility, more likely they will just move into a range where they are more audible. This is at odds with many audiophiles understanding so it tends to lead to spirited arguments on the forums, but the physics is clear.
    "In audiophile circles, if a little wall thickness is good then a lot is always better. The physics are actually at odds with that"
    Much of the understanding on this topic comes from the BBC research, especially of Harwood. This brings us around full circle so it is worth discussing. You asked about professional products and their influence. In the 60s and 70s the BBC found that with studio monitors, commercial offerings were inadequate and so they felt the need to design their own. These were very pure, purposeful designs. The brief was to create a range of monitor systems by focusing primarily on neutrality over all else. The BBC knew that the music mixing process is fundamentally about taking your microphone feeds and using all the tools at your disposal (equalization) to create a product that has a very particular sound that you want to achieve. Now you are judging that sound via a pair of studio monitors that are not directly in the recording chain. In truth, if those monitors are colored you end up incorporating the inverse of their personality into your mix. That is, if the speakers are bright you will unwittingly make the mix dull to compensate."

    I did some more reading on the construction of the BBC monitors particularly the LS 5/9 monitor speaker and then reading from the Harbeth site about their cabinet making.


    What do you gentlemen/women make out of this...should we be then be making thin walled cabinets with visco-elastic dampening instead of thick MDF walls with bracing? Seems like according to this, bracing and thicker walls, at least the way we commonly see in here is a useless endeavor?

  • #2
    Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

    Yes, and we should all drive Triumph Spitfires with Lucas electricals, positive earth.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

      Originally posted by morris View Post
      Happy new year to all!

      Reading the article on the interview with David Smith got me intrigued especially what he said about cabinet construction.

      "I’ve spent a bit of my career in architectural acoustics and come to have a much better understanding of cabinet performance by looking at the architectural parallels. A great deal of work has gone into building and measuring walls assemblies to try and keep your neighbor’s noise out of your side of the world. This is really what we want to achieve with loudspeaker cabinets. We want sound from the back side of the speaker to stay in the box. In architectural terms we want the Transmission Loss to be high.
      Now energy loss through the cabinet walls isn’t the problem so much as that it isn’t a uniform loss. Every cabinet wall will have numerous panel resonances and at those resonances the panels become essentially transparent. As this is a narrow band phenomenon it will have a long time signature and can have an audible effect out of proportion to its energy level.
      Cabinet construction frequently gets to the heart of audiophile beliefs and common misunderstandings. In audiophile circles, if a little wall thickness is good then a lot is always better. The physics are actually at odds with that. We need to lower the Q of cabinet resonances and higher mass or higher rigidity diminish the effect of any damping we apply. Damping is the key and we want a high ratio of damping material to wall mass or rigidity. The upshot is that thicker cabinet walls will always raise the Q of resonances and make their damping harder to achieve. Raising the resonance frequencies with more rigid walls will seldom get them above audibility, more likely they will just move into a range where they are more audible. This is at odds with many audiophiles understanding so it tends to lead to spirited arguments on the forums, but the physics is clear.
      "In audiophile circles, if a little wall thickness is good then a lot is always better. The physics are actually at odds with that"
      Much of the understanding on this topic comes from the BBC research, especially of Harwood. This brings us around full circle so it is worth discussing. You asked about professional products and their influence. In the 60s and 70s the BBC found that with studio monitors, commercial offerings were inadequate and so they felt the need to design their own. These were very pure, purposeful designs. The brief was to create a range of monitor systems by focusing primarily on neutrality over all else. The BBC knew that the music mixing process is fundamentally about taking your microphone feeds and using all the tools at your disposal (equalization) to create a product that has a very particular sound that you want to achieve. Now you are judging that sound via a pair of studio monitors that are not directly in the recording chain. In truth, if those monitors are colored you end up incorporating the inverse of their personality into your mix. That is, if the speakers are bright you will unwittingly make the mix dull to compensate."

      I did some more reading on the construction of the BBC monitors particularly the LS 5/9 monitor speaker and then reading from the Harbeth site about their cabinet making.


      What do you gentlemen/women make out of this...should we be then be making thin walled cabinets with visco-elastic dampening instead of thick MDF walls with bracing? Seems like according to this, bracing and thicker walls, at least the way we commonly see in here is a useless endeavor?
      Thicker walls with more mass are harder to excite. So while Q and F may go up, the actual amount the walls are excited may be quite low.

      But the real key in all this is to use a variety of materials in the construction of the walls (constrained layer construction). MDF is terrible actually. It's completely porous. We set sheets of 1" thick MDF onto the CNC as a base board for placing the cut material onto when machining. The table vacuum sucks the MDF AND the plywood on top of it to the table. The amount of suction is enough to make it almost impossible to pick up a piece of cut out ply if it's any larger than an 8" diameter disc.

      And don't forget that its not only resonances in the panels that contributes to sound emitted by the enclosure. Just like any wall of a building, sound is transmitted directly through the wall itself and is easily audible unless a constrained layer exists between them. A thinner wall will obviously transmit sound through it more than a thicker wall (single layer of drywall for example). So with thin walls it becomes paramount to use constraining layers to reduce that particular propagation mode.
      R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
      Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

      95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
      "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

        Originally posted by morris View Post
        What do you gentlemen/women make out of this...should we be then be making thin walled cabinets with visco-elastic dampening instead of thick MDF walls with bracing? Seems like according to this, bracing and thicker walls, at least the way we commonly see in here is a useless endeavor?
        You haven't referenced the BBC paper/s which are more quantitative and less anecdotal. If you value minimum cost, minimum weight and doing just enough to push the cabinet motion below audibility the BBC approach is a reasonable one but it is not the only one.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

          Originally posted by morris View Post
          What do you gentlemen/women make out of this...should we be then be making thin walled cabinets with visco-elastic dampening instead of thick MDF walls with bracing?
          IME, neither. I don't use MDF, because I hate working with it. I don't use visco-elastic damping because I've not found it worth the bother. I do use plywood, very well braced. I'd use visco-elastic and MDF if I found either worked better, but I've tried both and found them not to work any better than well braced 1/2 inch plywood. I've gone so far as to build similar designs using as thin as 1/8" plywood versus 3/4" MDF and found response to measure the same. The only major difference in the design stage is that to use thinner than 3/8" plywood the panels must be bent.
          As for 'looking at the architectural parallels', I have plenty of experience as a general contractor to bring into play, but found that the best experience I had to prepare me for designing speakers was building balsa model airplanes as a kid. Just like speakers aircraft require very high strength, and they must do so with light weight. So I don't build speakers like I would a house, I build them like an airplane or boat. One builder of my designs has noted that they closely resemble what he designs for a living, at Boeing.
          www.billfitzmaurice.com
          www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

            Originally posted by djg View Post
            Yes, and we should all drive Triumph Spitfires with Lucas electricals, positive earth.
            AAWWW come one man!!!

            Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
            IME, neither. I don't use MDF, because I hate working with it. I don't use visco-elastic damping because I've not found it worth the bother. I do use plywood, very well braced. I'd use visco-elastic and MDF if I found either worked better, but I've tried both and found them not to work any better than well braced 1/2 inch plywood. I've gone so far as to build similar designs using as thin as 1/8" plywood versus 3/4" MDF and found response to measure the same. The only major difference in the design stage is that to use thinner than 3/8" plywood the panels must be bent.
            As for 'looking at the architectural parallels', I have plenty of experience as a general contractor to bring into play, but found that the best experience I had to prepare me for designing speakers was building balsa model airplanes as a kid. Just like speakers aircraft require very high strength, and they must do so with light weight. So I don't build speakers like I would a house, I build them like an airplane or boat. One builder of my designs has noted that they closely resemble what he designs for a living, at Boeing.
            The last speaker I made was with 3/4 inch mdf heavily braced every 5" with aspalt roofing sheets on the inside and a 2.25" thick front baffle. Made it really heavy especially at nearly 3 cubic feet of volume but it sounded great to me. With the new Dayton Audio RS paper cones, I am itching to build another speaker for the bedroom but I would rather not try to build such heavy enclosure again. I think this time I would like to go with less cabinet weight. I might go with .5" plywood with good bracing.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

              MDF isn't porous. That exact same phenomenon can be witnessed with industrial vacuum pick and place gantries when picking 1/2" sheets of steel :rolleyes:
              Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                This topic comes up from time to time, but what is the "current" thinking about what the ideal constrained layer damping consists of? Would it be a stiff exterior, say 1/2" birch ply with an inner layer of something even stiffer like aluminium (and then the usual stuffing)? And use a flexible bonding/glue material in-between? So, overall a lighter and stiffer vs. heavy mass loaded cabinet?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                  Originally posted by djg View Post
                  Yes, and we should all drive Triumph Spitfires with Lucas electricals, positive earth.
                  We'd have a whole lot more fun driving them at real-world speeds than we do driving modern 500hp toasters with 12" wide tires and slushboxes...

                  Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                  ***Just like speakers aircraft require very high strength, and they must do so with light weight.
                  On the first point, strength, that's actually the opposite of what the Harwood papers, Smith, Geddes, etc. argue. (One could add Mark Dodd to the list, inferring based on the cabinet designs for his old Tannoy DMT line and his current KEF LS50.) They argue that damping is the priority, not stiffness. After all, a bell is very stiff.

                  On the second point, innate desirability of low mass, I agree with you for touring speakers (easier on roadies' backs) and even most commercial home speakers (lower freight costs, arguably lower risk of damage in transit). For bespoke cabinet builders, the same arguments apply as apply to commercial speaker makers.

                  For DIYers, though, the available data tell us that mass (be it high mass or low mass) is not something to prioritize, absent other conditions that may make it important. (The "I'm going to lug these things up 3 flights of stairs" factor, if you will.) Mass is a side issue, that falls where it falls based on other priorities. The speakers are generally built close to in-situ, and as a general rule only moved when other much heavier things (furniture) are also moved. So for DIY a method that results in a heavy cabinet with high damping, the desired exterior shape, the desired finish, and tolerable labor/materials cost is arguably little different from a lightweight cabinet with high damping, the desired exterior shape, the desired finish, and tolerable labor/materials cost.

                  As as total aside, one thing I looked up after Roman's comment on the original "David Smith" thread that strikes me as an interesting material for speaker-making is the "Coverply" stuff from Paperstone. If it's usefully cheaper than the full product and one's not rear-mounting drivers, it looks like a composite that might be great for speaker cabinet walls.
                  --
                  "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                    Originally posted by djg View Post
                    Yes, and we should all drive Triumph Spitfires with Lucas electricals, positive earth.
                    I think this is quite apropos actually. Of course to truly understand it, you'd have to have owned or maintained an English sport car of that era. I still fondly remember the SU sidedraft carburetters, which being 100% mechanical in nature, were blessedly exempt from the British Lucas curse...

                    C
                    Curt's Speaker Design Works

                    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
                    - Aristotle

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                      Originally posted by Pallas View Post
                      As as total aside, one thing I looked up after Roman's comment on the original "David Smith" thread that strikes me as an interesting material for speaker-making is the "Coverply" stuff from Paperstone. If it's usefully cheaper than the full product and one's not rear-mounting drivers, it looks like a composite that might be great for speaker cabinet walls.
                      Paperstone itself is prohibitively difficult to machine for conventional tooling. If you can imagine spiral carbide bit with carbide eaten away, that's what it does. Perhaps diamond coated abrasive bits would work better. Did you price out their "budget" panels? Skinned multiply looks interesting.
                      http://www.diy-ny.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                        Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
                        *** Did you price out their "budget" panels?
                        They have some Coverply in dark tan, 1.25" thick 4x8 sheet for 80 bucks a panel on the website. Plus shipping, which I imagine isn't cheap for individual pieces of sheet goods. No other colors, based on a quick scan. Cheaper than bamboo I guess...

                        Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
                        Skinned multiply looks interesting.
                        I'll be keeping it in mind if/when I look at new cabinets.
                        --
                        "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                          Originally posted by Pallas View Post
                          On the first point, strength, that's actually the opposite of what the Harwood papers, Smith, Geddes, etc. argue. (One could add Mark Dodd to the list, inferring based on the cabinet designs for his old Tannoy DMT line and his current KEF LS50.) They argue that damping is the priority, not stiffness. After all, a bell is very stiff.
                          The material it's made of is stiff, it's the way that it's made that makes it resonant. I've never seen a bell with cross-bracing.
                          There's nothing more effective at damping the vibration of a speaker cabinet than cross bracing. In this end-on picture of panel to panel braces the addition of the single red brace gives the same motion damping effect on the panel as does doubling the panel thickness:



                          The further addition of the blue braces is the equivalent of quadrupling the panel thickness.
                          www.billfitzmaurice.com
                          www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                            The more speakers I build the more I find Bill F's approach to heavy bracing vs heavy thickness to be absolutely true. And on a side note thanks to Lucas (fuel injectors) I destroyed several head gaskets and a piston ring land before I switched over to Bosch injectors.
                            Craig

                            I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

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                            • #15
                              Re: thinner wall vs thicker wall

                              why not line the mdf or other cab material with cork? i could care less about the green aspect as much as it absorbs sound as well as any man made material. plus it never degrades, its easy to work with, and its dirt cheap. bracing is great until it gets in the way of size constraints. this may just be a newb thought, but if you have to make a speaker a certain size without compromise, well secured cork would eat a whole lot less room than many braces. feel free to disagree. my thought is that if the sound wave is absorbed by the cork, the the cabinet won't resonate as much.

                              as always i could be wrong, but cork has been the standard in my field(flooring) for decades when sound deadening is needed.

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