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Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

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  • #16
    Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

    Craig they weren't advertised as .19. That is what Jeff measured. Why the difference I don't know. It does have me wondering as well though. It does have some competion to be sure but one thing that appealed to me is that it is built here in the US. Paper cone, nice features, well built.
    https://www.facebook.com/Mosaic-Audi...7373763888294/

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    • #17
      Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

      To be honest, I wonder at the accuracy of the WT3 many seem to be using. My pair both measured under 0.20mH for coil inductance which is a spec beginning to take on importance in the modern age as it is a very good indicator for very low distortion. My two samples also displayed zero wiggles in the impedance profile, which is highly unusual for drivers at almost any price. One of my two measured higher Q than the other, but the six mentioned here plus one of mine are all within 0.01 on total Q. I plan to revisit my outlier later to see where it is, if it comes back in close it indicates very tight tolerances in the motor and suspension. Sensitivity is no lower than typical high end drivers in this size range, as well.

      Further - subjective feedback on the driver from a room full of people who know how to listen, have spent time with high end designs have given it a thumbs up.

      So why so grumpy about it, Mike?
      Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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      • #18
        Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

        Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
        To be honest, I wonder at the accuracy of the WT3 many seem to be using. My pair both measured under 0.20mH for coil inductance which is a spec beginning to take on importance in the modern age as it is a very good indicator for very low distortion. My two samples also displayed zero wiggles in the impedance profile, which is highly unusual for drivers at almost any price. One of my two measured higher Q than the other, but the six mentioned here plus one of mine are all within 0.01 on total Q. I plan to revisit my outlier later to see where it is, if it comes back in close it indicates very tight tolerances in the motor and suspension. Sensitivity is no lower than typical high end drivers in this size range, as well.

        Further - subjective feedback on the driver from a room full of people who know how to listen, have spent time with high end designs have given it a thumbs up.

        So why so grumpy about it, Mike?
        Not grumpy at all. I just don't drink the juice. Honestly, too, far less than an ideal conditions to just fidelity. Yes, it plays loud. The endorsement from Jeff helps the cause but I do think it better perform like a mo-fo if it's going to be a value at $70.....Starting with high Le, a Qts over .4, and an 85dB eff is not a good start. Not grumpy just skeptical. I also look at a sense of value. I want a $70 driver that sounds like a $100 driver. That is value. A $70 driver that sounds like a $70 driver just runs with the pack... Now: If it can offer an application specific benefit that it will have some market-share. Otherwise it's just another driver and lawdy knows we gots lots o' them.


        I agree: The WT3 sucks.... I have an original Smith and Larson WT2 and have never ad an issue. They still make em' so good data is available. Data is like everything else, how you attain it and what you see is not always what you get. If your pair measured low Le, I would be more inclined to take that data being very familiar with your methods.
        .

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        • #19
          Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

          for shitzengiggles I cracked the WT3 out of it's cage and ran them on that one, and had similar results to WT2, and Le still measured under 0.2

          Not sure why a Q over 0.4 is a mark against it.

          It remains to be seen what it sounds like, but I didn't hear anyone that attended the premiere event talk about how it sounded like a $70 driver, so just wait for the buzz to kill and the reports to come in. Forming preconceived notions wrecks objectivity when one wants to listen to it - I have an interesting anecdote about that I noticed at Indy last year
          Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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          • #20
            Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

            I was amazed at the sound of the speaker at Jeff's seminar. From the first notes it sounded special. Maybe more than anything was the integration of woofer and tweeter.

            Edit: Just finished building the Docere using PE's 0.5 cu ft cabs. Since the width of these cabs are the same as Jeff's I figured the Dover will be close enough. Right off the bat female vocals are really good.
            Last edited by johngalt47; 02-01-2014, 01:28 PM.

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            • #21
              Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

              Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
              To be honest, I wonder at the accuracy of the WT3 many seem to be using. My pair both measured under 0.20mH for coil inductance which is a spec beginning to take on importance in the modern age as it is a very good indicator for very low distortion. My two samples also displayed zero wiggles in the impedance profile, which is highly unusual for drivers at almost any price. One of my two measured higher Q than the other, but the six mentioned here plus one of mine are all within 0.01 on total Q. I plan to revisit my outlier later to see where it is, if it comes back in close it indicates very tight tolerances in the motor and suspension. Sensitivity is no lower than typical high end drivers in this size range, as well.
              Did you try measuring another driver to see if the results were in line with what you predicted? I have been using the WT3 and DATS products for years and had extremely consistent results. And that's not me just shilling for the company, since I used WT3/DATS before I came to work for Dayton Audio.

              Most often when there are problems, it's usually obvious from looking at the graph that something isn't right, and it's usually some issue with the OS settings, as Microsoft's audio subsystem within Windows has always been marginal, and with Windows 8, it's downright broken. It's the ubiquity of Windows that dictates that we develop for it. Make sure you calibrate your DATS each time you plug it in, before making your first measurement with it, for the most accurate results, and re-calibrate every 24-48 hours. I leave mine plugged into my PC (which is on 24/7) and follow this process and have not had the problems that many are describing.

              Spend some time, get your settings right, calibrate, and then if there are still large value swings from measurement to measurement on the same unit then maybe there's a larger issue.
              Best Regards,

              Rory Buszka
              Product Manager, Dayton Audio

              The best way to predict the future is to create it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                I did receive my two drivers--but instead of doing any measuring I immediately dropped them into my Docere cabinets and have been listening ever since. I have not posted the schematic yet from the seminar simply because after listening to a pair it seems the high end needs to be toned down slightly. I'll leave that to the other thread.

                As far as the driver goes--Jeff didn't just endorse the driver (and he said he spent quite a bit of time with it) but he said he felt it was (can't remember exact words) up there with Scanspeak quality design/performance. Not that all Scans are perfect or anything-but when talking about value I certainly think it is there.

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                • #23
                  Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                  Originally posted by johngalt47 View Post
                  I was amazed at the sound of the speaker at Jeff's seminar. From the first notes it sounded special. Maybe more than anything was the integration of woofer and tweeter.
                  Many times this has alot to do with it. The Seas EXCEL series are jaw-dropping....until they are in the wrong hands and then they are scream machines or edgy, nearvous, nails on a chalk board... Jeff is surgical with design and integration.

                  Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
                  for shitzengiggles I cracked the WT3 out of it's cage and ran them on that one, and had similar results to WT2, and Le still measured under 0.2

                  Not sure why a Q over 0.4 is a mark against it.

                  It remains to be seen what it sounds like, but I didn't hear anyone that attended the premiere event talk about how it sounded like a $70 driver, so just wait for the buzz to kill and the reports to come in. Forming preconceived notions wrecks objectivity when one wants to listen to it - I have an interesting anecdote about that I noticed at Indy last year
                  A little more poetic than my approiach.... I admit. Just would hate to see the herding instinct can lead to Lemmings at times.

                  I just would expect a slightly lower Fs if the Qts was going to be 0.4-0.45 for a $70 driver. Nothing wrong with a Qts of 0.4-0.45, but 30-32Hz fS would haave been nice. Yet there was no further eff. to give up. Glad for the consistancy on your WT3...Those things do not have a good track record though. Sometimes believeing everything pisted, or read on a screen or even in a textbook can be very misleading if not understood or intrepreted wrong. Somwimes asking Why does not make someone an a-hole, just querious. This was a great example and now I woudl be far more incined to say his WT3 may be wonky vs. the driver specs being that far off. Thanks as always for the dilligence.

                  Originally posted by mpotoka View Post
                  I did receive my two drivers--but instead of doing any measuring I immediately dropped them into my Docere cabinets and have been listening ever since. I have not posted the schematic yet from the seminar simply because after listening to a pair it seems the high end needs to be toned down slightly. I'll leave that to the other thread.

                  As far as the driver goes--Jeff didn't just endorse the driver (and he said he spent quite a bit of time with it) but he said he felt it was (can't remember exact words) up there with Scanspeak quality design/performance. Not that all Scans are perfect or anything-but when talking about value I certainly think it is there.
                  That is a very big statement to make. My preface to this is I am a scan fanboi..... But never the less there is a track record of 30+ years of amazing drivers. So much so that they had to come out with a "classic" line for their drivers that still are concidered high performance even with cutting edge "new" drivers. I just got reminded of this in a build I did utilizing the 18W which has been the forst scan woofer I have used in years.... I was shocked at the performance. Now it is what... A $250 woofer? I got mine out of a bastardized speaker, luckily... But never the less this thing today is miles above much of what is out there and I remember messing with them when they wer $79/ea back in 1998 and PE carried them lol.....

                  I hope this driver can live up to its hype. It will be very nice to see an american company making this happen in the driver world that is not catering to the exotic like acoustic elegance (devistating performance by the way) and offering new options for DIY-ers.
                  .

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                    Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                    Did you try measuring another driver to see if the results were in line with what you predicted? I have been using the WT3 and DATS products for years and had extremely consistent results. And that's not me just shilling for the company, since I used WT3/DATS before I came to work for Dayton Audio.

                    Most often when there are problems, it's usually obvious from looking at the graph that something isn't right, and it's usually some issue with the OS settings, as Microsoft's audio subsystem within Windows has always been marginal, and with Windows 8, it's downright broken. It's the ubiquity of Windows that dictates that we develop for it. Make sure you calibrate your DATS each time you plug it in, before making your first measurement with it, for the most accurate results, and re-calibrate every 24-48 hours. I leave mine plugged into my PC (which is on 24/7) and follow this process and have not had the problems that many are describing.

                    Spend some time, get your settings right, calibrate, and then if there are still large value swings from measurement to measurement on the same unit then maybe there's a larger issue.
                    Rory,
                    My DATS craps out in the middle of the session. It will measure one device just fine and when I go to the next device it shows garbage. I have to wait a few minutes and then it is back to normal.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                      Mine as well. Mine was a recent upgrade from wt3 to DATS though. Not sure that has anything to do with it though.
                      https://www.facebook.com/Mosaic-Audi...7373763888294/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                        Rory, no offense to you or PE but I have been through the proper routine setup lecture numerous times.
                        Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                          Originally posted by mzisserson View Post
                          Many times this has alot to do with it. The Seas EXCEL series are jaw-dropping....until they are in the wrong hands and then they are scream machines or edgy, nearvous, nails on a chalk board... Jeff is surgical with design and integration.



                          A little more poetic than my approiach.... I admit. Just would hate to see the herding instinct can lead to Lemmings at times.

                          I just would expect a slightly lower Fs if the Qts was going to be 0.4-0.45 for a $70 driver. Nothing wrong with a Qts of 0.4-0.45, but 30-32Hz fS would haave been nice. Yet there was no further eff. to give up. Glad for the consistancy on your WT3...Those things do not have a good track record though. Sometimes believeing everything pisted, or read on a screen or even in a textbook can be very misleading if not understood or intrepreted wrong. Somwimes asking Why does not make someone an a-hole, just querious. This was a great example and now I woudl be far more incined to say his WT3 may be wonky vs. the driver specs being that far off. Thanks as always for the dilligence.



                          That is a very big statement to make. My preface to this is I am a scan fanboi..... But never the less there is a track record of 30+ years of amazing drivers. So much so that they had to come out with a "classic" line for their drivers that still are concidered high performance even with cutting edge "new" drivers. I just got reminded of this in a build I did utilizing the 18W which has been the forst scan woofer I have used in years.... I was shocked at the performance. Now it is what... A $250 woofer? I got mine out of a bastardized speaker, luckily... But never the less this thing today is miles above much of what is out there and I remember messing with them when they wer $79/ea back in 1998 and PE carried them lol.....

                          I hope this driver can live up to its hype. It will be very nice to see an american company making this happen in the driver world that is not catering to the exotic like acoustic elegance (devistating performance by the way) and offering new options for DIY-ers.
                          Let me address some of the questions:

                          1. I measured Le at .19mH, but I always measure at 10kHz, which give a better indication of Le induced distortion. Since Le is always changing with frequency if measured at 1 kHz it will be a higher reading.

                          2. The 84-85 dB sensitivity value being used is for 1 W/M for a 4 ohm driver. This is not a very good number to go by. Voltage sensitivity is what matters with loudspeakers and in this case the driver is about 87-87.5 dB which is pretty common for a 6.5" driver.

                          3. An Fs of 39 Hz is pretty decent for a 6.5" woofer in my opinion. A lower Fs in the 30Hz range would have resulted in lower sensitivity too. These things are all tied together.

                          4. I am partly to "blame" for the Qts value of .43. I could have asked for something lower, but I actually wanted a driver with a Qts in this range and considered that to be optimal. A Qts in the .4 range makes the most versatile driver for use in sealed, vented, or transmission line systems. I am not a fan of drivers with a Qts in the .2 range or the .6 range.

                          5. This isn't the "new woofer to beat" and I don't believe any one implied that. It is, however, a very nice driver - stiff well-damped paper cone, rubber surround, cast frame, raised bump plate, nicely overhung motor, copper shorting rings...... It has very low distortion, low inductance, in my opinion very nice T/S parameters and sounds very good with fairly linear controlled frequency response. I did make the comparison to Scanspeak at the seminar. I still think it is valid comparison. It is also American made - isn't it about time?

                          Jeff
                          Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                          • #28
                            Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                            I find it strange that three of the four drivers tested had the same Fs, I have a WT2 and have never had that happen and would be instantly suspicious if it did.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                              Did I miss it, or did somebody post pictures & link to the product - I've been looking and can't find either...
                              "...this is not a subwoofer" - Jeff Bagby ;)

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                              • #30
                                Re: Received my W6520R-4 drivers!

                                Originally posted by critofur View Post
                                Did I miss it, or did somebody post pictures & link to the product - I've been looking and can't find either...
                                I don't think any of that is posted at Meniscus yet. Maybe someone can take a few pics and post them. I can post my measurements but it will take a day or two. I can take some pics then too if no one else has some up by them.

                                Jeff
                                Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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