3 WayWoofer help

[buzzforb]

I am starting another thread only because this is for a new speaker. This design is a result of my recent listening experience with Jeff Bagby's Kairos kit. I lie it enough that I am going to use it as the mid-woofer in my floor-stander design. Where i need help is in the woofer selection.

Option 1:
Avalon Eidelon style enclosure using the AE TD12 woofer. I can have them re-coned to any version and was thinking of using the TD12H. I could low pass it using a 1st order crossover to the Satori at or around baffle step. In a 1.5 cubic ft^3 box, it would have around a 3dB advantage over the Satori and should mate well very naturally. It would also provide a nice slow rolloff for extremely deep in room response. Perhaps too much.

Option 2:
Sony SSAr-1/Avalon Indra style with dual 8" woofers. This is the one I am struggling with. My shortlist would include the Dayton RS225, SB23RNX, SS Discovery, and my ultimate, the SS 22W. I dont know if I can swing the Revelators, as they are a great deal more expensive than the other options.

Option 3:
Consider a 10" woofer that will blend well.

In all options, I am trying to preserve the efficiency of the midrange Satori.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

Personally, I like the 12" option. I can't say for sure but it seems like a close semblance of my Intrepids. Though they have a 2nd order on the woofer and 1st order to the mid, electrical. Cross is at 300.
Though a sub or 2 may also be a good option?

[buzzforb]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

Nice project. The MA drivers are wonderful despite not looking good on paper. I bet your system sounds great. I have the 10.2's in Dave's dMarKen enclosures.

I think you are right about the 12's, but I am hesitant for two reasons. Size and how well it will mate to the 6.5" woofer.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

Thank you. They do sound quite good. Seeing as how Jeff designed the cross covers, I wouldn't expect any less.
Are the 12s more sensitive than the satori?

[buzzforb]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

Yes. As simmed, about 3dB more efficient.

[Jeff B.]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

Yes. As simmed, about 3dB more efficient.

The TD12H and the Satori should be an excellent match. This would be my recommendation. The TD12H is the best true woofer I have ever used. This would be great combo. I have a pair at home right now for another project for someone else. I may experiment with them if I get a chance.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

I've got a couple of Scanspeak Revelator aluminum cone 10" woofers looking for a nice, high end project.

[buzzforb]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

THe SS 10 is very tempting, Pete, but I have the TD12's. Recones only cost $125 and the efficiency is dead on. If you have the SS Revelator then it is only 87dB efficient and leaves me in a position either give up efficiency or double up. I would love to double up or do .5way with an 8" above. I would consider this, but the cash outlay start to grow substantially. That being said, make a case for th choice. I am listening.

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

THe SS 10 is very tempting, Pete, but I have the TD12's. Recones only cost $125 and the efficiency is dead on. If you have the SS Revelator then it is only 87dB efficient and leaves me in a position either give up efficiency or double up. I would love to double up or do .5way with an 8" above. I would consider this, but the cash outlay start to grow substantially. That being said, make a case for th choice. I am listening.

Hey, if you've got TD12s, what the heck! Certainly makes the most sense.

You mentioned a possible 10" option, and these Revelators will definitely dig deeper than the AE woofer, which may or may not matter to you. Of course, you do give up sensitivity as a penalty. That said, it would still make for a dynamite low end for that Satori, even if you didn't double up.

[buzzforb]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

Send me a PM with the asking price. Ill model both and decide. Maybe give the other to my brother to use with his setup.

[buzzforb]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

The wifey is not keen on the idea of a speaker wide enough to do a 12", so we have to talk alternatives.

Option1:
Pete's 10" plus another 8" or 10" above it. Like the 12", this has me drooling at the performance possiblities, but is extremely expensive at close to $1400 for the woofers alone.

Option 2:
Pete's 10" under the Satori, just giving up the senstitivity loss. I am not higely bothered by this, but i love dynamic speakers and 3dB loss puts me in the 83-84dB region. Is there a possiblity of Linkwitz Transform in this case? Pete what do you guys do the Cirrus speaker? I would think the SS could take it as well anything.

Option 3:
Dual Satori's in .5 way crossed to dual opposed, side firing Dayton subs. I get the sensitivity with .5 way, but probably get into some allison effect issues.

In all cases, even the 12" option, to what degree can I minimize the Allison effect/floor bounce/ room issues?

[Pete Schumacher]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

The wifey is not keen on the idea of a speaker wide enough to do a 12", so we have to talk alternatives.

Option1:
Pete's 10" plus another 8" or 10" above it. Like the 12", this has me drooling at the performance possiblities, but is extremely expensive at close to $1400 for the woofers alone.

Option 2:
Pete's 10" under the Satori, just giving up the senstitivity loss. I am not higely bothered by this, but i love dynamic speakers and 3dB loss puts me in the 83-84dB region. Is there a possiblity of Linkwitz Transform in this case? Pete what do you guys do the Cirrus speaker? I would think the SS could take it as well anything.

Option 3:
Dual Satori's in .5 way crossed to dual opposed, side firing Dayton subs. I get the sensitivity with .5 way, but probably get into some allison effect issues.

In all cases, even the 12" option, to what degree can I minimize the Allison effect/floor bounce/ room issues?

Option 3: Run the RSS Woofers to about 300Hz and the second Satori simply isn't needed. See my Byzantium design for reference. Floor bounce is also mitigated by this method if the correct crossover point is chosen for the mid.

Option 2: If the woofer is mounted next to the floor, you lose maybe 1dB due to baffle step loss. Doing LT is certainly a possibility, but it also may not be needed.

[Greggo]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

Hey, whatever happened to your 10 Beyma woofer project??? I remember that you were not happy with crossover between it and TL/waveguide but I was wondering why you would not consider it as an option here? When I look at form factor and performance I still think it would be awesome to find a 10 inch driver that could work for music without a sub and cross to a SEOS 10 with a dome tweeter (RS28A?) but I know you are going in a different direction here.

Another option that I have found compelling is the GR/Rythmik servo 8. A pair of them with servo control up to 200-250Hz keeps the form factor more residential friendly and they seem to have some great potential (though still too new as there is little feedback from users). You could then use a passive line level filter to roll off bass below 250Hz from your main amp and leave the Kairos crossover alone and be done. If I had a bigger budget, this is the direction I would be going but with a larger mid and waveguide as I want to remove my room from the equation as much as possible.

[buzzforb]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

THe Beyma is an excellent mid bass speaker, but it simply did not blend well with the TL Labs tweeter and waveguide. It would make a perfect match to a SEOS 10 or 12, as they reach a little further down. I considered it on this project, but while it offered the needed efficiency, I felt like it would also leave me wanting something else for bass. Ill look into the Rythmik idea, but I am now leaning toward Pete's 10. I would go dual 8's but i worry about the quality of the woofers in this range in terms of LF reproduction unless you get into some more expensive stuff like the Revelators. I looked into the SB23RNX, Dayton RS225, and SS Discovery. While a lll of them perform well, I want to be able to match the performance of the Satori from top to bottom.

[dwk123]

Re: 3 WayWoofer help

HTGuide has a fair number of Avalon-inspired projects. The Wavecor 8's are being used in an Indra style setup, apparently to good effect - not cheap, but less than the Revelators. IMHO the RSS210s seem viable as a less expensive alternative, although you might get into impedance and/or sensitivity concerns with the HF model. I haven't modeled the HO variants to see how they perform, but it might be worth looking at.
There's also the Anarchy drivers. Only 6.5s, but great low end and they've been used in some fairly well regarded 2-way speakers so bandwidth isn't a problem. Might look good in an Indra style cabinet.