Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

[davepellegrene]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

Heard nothing but good things about them. Plus you are getting into high efficiency midbasses, why not try a nice little compression driver too? If you didn't like it, they would sell pretty fast...pretty popular little driver. They are very clean drivers after 2k from the measurements that I have seen.

That's all. Just something to think about.

Nothing wrong with the Audax for sure...and they do look cool with the gold dome.

I'm sure at some point I will try a compression driver. That would be a good one to start out with price wise for sure. I'll keep it in mind.
Thanks
Dave

[davepellegrene]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

How much would you charge for a waveguide for the css ldx25
And the tb mid?

I'd probably need at least $100 a piece for them with the mounting plates as in the first three pics.
The outer shape could be done as a square.

I googled studio monitors today after Greggo mentioned them. I guess what I'm building would be a studio monitor. Other then they don't have the built in amp. One thing that caught my eye was one similar that looks like it is using the same 3" dome with what looks like an SS tweeter. What I found interesting is the tweeter/ mid plate looks removable so as you could turn it 90 degrees and lay it on its side as in the pic.



Dave

[Greggo]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

That looks like the old Vifa/Scan 3" dome to me... but there has been a fair amount of speculation as to what folks are using once they take a clear step down from the ATC/Volt/PMC dome.. which are close variants of each other and very expensive. But I am glad you found that example as I think that is still a desired feature by some folks, having the option to rotate a segment of the baffle so the speaker is better optimized for either vertical or horizontal orientation. Getting an amp module to attache to the back of a monitor kit would be pretty easy, and also having the option for a miniDSP file and instructions on how to best tune it to your room would be an attractive option.

I liked the trapezoid shape for a home speaker, and also think it would be smart to offer a square module for HT and Studio kits. I think you could position this with some really neat possibilities. Not sure what your particular ambitions are, but everything from just baffles with instructions for what else to get and how to assemble, all the way up through a full "all inclusive" package would probably work quite well.

Here are the combos I think would draw a significant amount of interest:

1) Home version, trapezoid combo WG baffle:
a) TB dome with AC AST2560
b) TB dome with dome tweeter TBD (whatever proves to be the best match up...)

2) Studio version, square combo WG baffle, same driver options as above

3) For both versions above:
a) Value/Performance Woofer option (quite possibly the Deltalite you are trying out first)
b) Studio Woofer option, something like an AE TD12S... not sure about cabinet size demands of various 12 inch woofer options, and then sensitivity...

My own two cents... rather than trying to offer guides for just about any tweeter, make a case for specializing in a hand full of options that are optimum performers in different size WGs, already mounted up and perfectly mated to WG, with WG already integrated into baffle and a woofer hole ready to accept the woofer of choice. If I could buy a reasonably priced baffle with integrated WG and mid and tweet drivers... and all I had to do was order the woofer, install in baffle, build (or have something built locally) cabinet to accept baffle, and then wire up crossover or hook up miniDSP, I think that would be a great option that bridges the gap between commercial products and DIY projects that are overwhelming for folks like myself. It is not that I couldn't do all the work, it is about the right tools, the right space, and the patience to practice and get it all done right. I have to believe that many consumers and musicians/producer types.. would love to up their game but don't want to drop 6-12k or more to get a significant jump up from there starter monitors (usually 500-1,500 per pair).

The entry studio monitor market is a tough if not impossible sell, as I can get reasonably good 5-8 inch woofer based two ways for $600/pair or less including built in power amps, but those 3-way monitors are big jumps in price with only a couple of exceptions, and those two exceptions (KRK and Event) are not really all that great.

Anyways... al my BS above doesn't really matter. If you project turns out great and some people hear it and spread the word, then I am sure what you want to do and are willing to do will be fairly easy to sort out based on response from folks.

[Greggo]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

Sorry for babbling on in my post above... I just think you have something that will really stand out here, it is different without being "wacky different" and has a lot of potential.

[greywarden]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

these look awesome. I want to attempt the faceted baffle on my next build.

[gowa]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

Wow!!!

[winslow]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

I think the waveguide baffle would be hot in some black suede. But that's just me.

[Wolf]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

I think the waveguide baffle would be hot in some black suede. But that's just me.

I was thinking leather.
Wolf

[winslow]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

Yeah that would be nice too.

Dave, maybe you should look into Alsa Corp's Soft Touch paint. Pretty neat stuff, can make suede/leather feel. I don't recall how expensive the stuff is.,,been 6 or 7 years since I've looked at it.

[davepellegrene]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

That looks like the old Vifa/Scan 3" dome to me... but there has been a fair amount of speculation as to what folks are using once they take a clear step down from the ATC/Volt/PMC dome.. which are close variants of each other and very expensive. But I am glad you found that example as I think that is still a desired feature by some folks, having the option to rotate a segment of the baffle so the speaker is better optimized for either vertical or horizontal orientation. Getting an amp module to attache to the back of a monitor kit would be pretty easy, and also having the option for a miniDSP file and instructions on how to best tune it to your room would be an attractive option.

I liked the trapezoid shape for a home speaker, and also think it would be smart to offer a square module for HT and Studio kits. I think you could position this with some really neat possibilities. Not sure what your particular ambitions are, but everything from just baffles with instructions for what else to get and how to assemble, all the way up through a full "all inclusive" package would probably work quite well.

Here are the combos I think would draw a significant amount of interest:

1) Home version, trapezoid combo WG baffle:
a) TB dome with AC AST2560
b) TB dome with dome tweeter TBD (whatever proves to be the best match up...)

2) Studio version, square combo WG baffle, same driver options as above

3) For both versions above:
a) Value/Performance Woofer option (quite possibly the Deltalite you are trying out first)
b) Studio Woofer option, something like an AE TD12S... not sure about cabinet size demands of various 12 inch woofer options, and then sensitivity...

My own two cents... rather than trying to offer guides for just about any tweeter, make a case for specializing in a hand full of options that are optimum performers in different size WGs, already mounted up and perfectly mated to WG, with WG already integrated into baffle and a woofer hole ready to accept the woofer of choice. If I could buy a reasonably priced baffle with integrated WG and mid and tweet drivers... and all I had to do was order the woofer, install in baffle, build (or have something built locally) cabinet to accept baffle, and then wire up crossover or hook up miniDSP, I think that would be a great option that bridges the gap between commercial products and DIY projects that are overwhelming for folks like myself. It is not that I couldn't do all the work, it is about the right tools, the right space, and the patience to practice and get it all done right. I have to believe that many consumers and musicians/producer types.. would love to up their game but don't want to drop 6-12k or more to get a significant jump up from there starter monitors (usually 500-1,500 per pair).

The entry studio monitor market is a tough if not impossible sell, as I can get reasonably good 5-8 inch woofer based two ways for $600/pair or less including built in power amps, but those 3-way monitors are big jumps in price with only a couple of exceptions, and those two exceptions (KRK and Event) are not really all that great.

Anyways... al my BS above doesn't really matter. If you project turns out great and some people hear it and spread the word, then I am sure what you want to do and are willing to do will be fairly easy to sort out based on response from folks.

You pretty much summed up what I had in mind other then the studio monitor idea. A square baffle would be simple and quick so it would be less expensive. I like the idea of turning the waveguide baffle as well. My plan on working with the AST2560 along with the B&C 8 with the end goal to be able to swap drivers and waveguide styles and have it all fit in the same cut outs. One reseason for installing the woofers from the rear is for an easier swap. The B&C that I'm using is the exact same size as the AE TD12. Hopefully I can work out the cabinet size to accommodate both. Also with the B&C 8 being octagon shaped I can cut the rear opening round for other 8" woofers.
I'll probably use both cabinet style on the 8" two way as well.

Dave

[Greggo]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

Dave, that sounds awesome. The idea of an AE TD12X in a larger cab with your combo waveguide is currently at the top of my list for a project this summer/fall. Upon further reading it seems like the 12X gives the best bass in a good sized cab and still has decent efficiency, but who knows, I have trouble following the pros/cons of S/X/H... I get the M, but everything else requires more knowledge than I have.

Again, just my own two cents here, but it seems like the TB mid dome in 11x6 is a done deal, meaning there does not seem to be any better driver choice and there seems to be no reason to go any bigger with the WG. It just seems to me like the polar and distortion plots point to a nicely optimized combination since many woofers can easily play up to 600-800 Hz crossover and it doesn't seem to make much sense to push the TB mid dome down any lower than that.

For the top part of the combo, I guess it falls to you to decide if it is worth pushing the TB mid dome up any higher than 2k? And even if you stay in the 1.8-2k ballpark as the crossover point between the two WGs, could the top guide be a bit smaller than 8x5 and still perform perfectly well in the new role of sitting above the 11x6?

Finally, it will then fall to the best tweeter for the top waveguide, Vifa, Audax, AC, or anything else that you think meets the right criteria. Once you get that done, even if you never did anything else I think that would be an awesome offer. A well designed passive crossover that has the two waveguides behaving as one nice seamless driver and then folks could go active between combo WG and the woofer/s of their choice.

Taking it further and having a good woofer picked out and a three way passive crossover that brings it all together is just frosting on the cake. But potentially delicious frosting that I for one would be very interested in.

[Greggo]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

One last comment for now. Another big plus with a minimal square baffle just for combo WG is that with a crossover point of 800 Hz or lower, I would be real tempted to build a dedicated cab for just the WGs, heavily damped and ventilated, and with some heavily damped footers to sit on top of a dedicated woofer cabinet, keeping the heat and vibration of a 10, 12, or 15 inch woofer as isolated as possible and giving me more flexibility down the road. Might start off with a woofer designed to match up to WGs and not need a sub, but then later on focus on a new woofer/cab combo that is just for 60 or 80 Hz on up to WG mid dome and then a new dedicated monster sub to handle everything below 60 or 80 Hz. Or even just to allow some experimentation over time. With crossovers around 1.2 (? just guessing a ballpark range here...) and above, it seems like separate cabinets often introduce more problems than they solve. But in this case, it might be worth the extra work.

[davepellegrene]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

Dave, that sounds awesome. The idea of an AE TD12X in a larger cab with your combo waveguide is currently at the top of my list for a project this summer/fall. Upon further reading it seems like the 12X gives the best bass in a good sized cab and still has decent efficiency, but who knows, I have trouble following the pros/cons of S/X/H... I get the M, but everything else requires more knowledge than I have.

Again, just my own two cents here, but it seems like the TB mid dome in 11x6 is a done deal, meaning there does not seem to be any better driver choice and there seems to be no reason to go any bigger with the WG. It just seems to me like the polar and distortion plots point to a nicely optimized combination since many woofers can easily play up to 600-800 Hz crossover and it doesn't seem to make much sense to push the TB mid dome down any lower than that.

For the top part of the combo, I guess it falls to you to decide if it is worth pushing the TB mid dome up any higher than 2k? And even if you stay in the 1.8-2k ballpark as the crossover point between the two WGs, could the top guide be a bit smaller than 8x5 and still perform perfectly well in the new role of sitting above the 11x6?

Finally, it will then fall to the best tweeter for the top waveguide, Vifa, Audax, AC, or anything else that you think meets the right criteria. Once you get that done, even if you never did anything else I think that would be an awesome offer. A well designed passive crossover that has the two waveguides behaving as one nice seamless driver and then folks could go active between combo WG and the woofer/s of their choice.

Taking it further and having a good woofer picked out and a three way passive crossover that brings it all together is just frosting on the cake. But potentially delicious frosting that I for one would be very interested in.

I would eventually like to try the AE TD12 but at this point I've already forked out quite a bit of cash for the Audax, TB75, B&C12 and the AST2560's. The B&C 8's are on loan and I plan on picking up a pair so I need to let the dust settle before I drop another $600 on the AE TD12's. That's ok though because by the time I put everything together, I have now, I should be ready for them, if I feel I want to go that route. As far as the 8x5 guide I don't see a reason to down size it. If I end up with a sensitivity above 92 dbs I'll be pushing the tweeters pretty hard so the extra attenuation may be good. That and I always seem to cross the tweeter over at least 400 Hz above cut off. Not sure why but they seem to sound best when I do.

I'm curious to test the AST2560 with the back sealed. Everything I have done with it so far has been dipole. I think I'm going to pair it with the B&C 8, then compare it to the Audax with the TB75, and do some A/B testing. That should give me a better idea of whether I want to put it in the combo guide.

I just recently fabricated a rectangular guide, for someone that needed a replacement set of guides for an existing speaker, that had the SS 9300 in it. It did quite well so I'm going to do some testing starting with the AST in a rectangular guide. It will look similar to this other then it will be deeper.



I'll be working on that this week.

I'd like to see what the difference is compared to an elliptical guide. Also I'd like to try a square guide and see how it compares to a round guide of the same size. I'm curious to see if it will get rid of the dip/ humps I always see from about 4-9 kHz, from on axis to about 20 degrees off axis, that's inherent to a round guide.

Whatever I end up with, the tweeter in the combo guide, could be swapped out with quite a few different tweeter. Just about every tweeter I have tested has done well with the 8x5 elliptical guide. So potentially you could have whatever tweeter you like.

I used 3/4" MDF to mount the guide to, which makes it 7/8" thick, so I had to notch the backer strips an 1/8" in order to have it sit flush to the baffle. I had a sheet of 5/8" MDF a while back that I thought would work perfect to make the guide 3/4" thick. I checked the big box stores today and nobody carries it. I've got Menards to check but on line they don't show it.

Anyway lots of work to do.

Dave

[Greggo]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

A quick mock up for a possible future project...

[davepellegrene]

Re: Deltalite II 2512- TB75 1558-AudaxTW25A8 Combo Waveguide

A quick mock up for a possible future project...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45450[/ATTACH]

I have a build that I put on hold for a while that looks similar to that. The down side would be more labor and materials to build separate cabinets along with the angles.




I wouldn't even think about trying to market this design.



Tapered line


I separated the mid/ tweeter box so they would be more easily movable. The second one is about half way. I just can't seem to find the time to get back to them.

Dave