Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I think with this woofer if we set a baffle width at say 15" a person could build it 30" or 32" tall and deep enough to get 70 liters for the woofer and not lose too much LF. Or a person could build it 42" tall and the same width with less depth of the cabinet and get around 100 liters. That will give a slightly deeper LF cutoff. Build it how you like. The only thing I see being an issue with that is how far is the woofer from the floor and how far is it from the mid and how would changes in those parameters with different build heights may affect the system.

Are we settled on the height? I sure wish it was just a few inches shorter and wider. Like those old AR's and ADS speakers that you'd set on the floor most of the time, but put on 4" stands or maybe a little more, to be hifi correct.

[speedle]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Are we settled on the height? I sure wish it was just a few inches shorter and wider. Like those old AR's and ADS speakers that you'd set on the floor most of the time, but put on 4" stands or maybe a little more, to be hifi correct.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

True John. Somehow I deleted the 2nd part of my post and did not notice it.

[jhollander]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I can pull t/s numbers on them, sure.

Chuck, the question is what's the sensitivity near the x-o point. If you can't measure SPL directly you can compare with a well known tweeter on a large baffle.

I've got a big piece of cardboard for these types of measurements.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

It would seem so

[andy19191]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Andy what is the issue you have with a 4ohm tweeter? After series resistance, the top end will probably still be in the 6ohm area and NO amp will have a problem driving that.

For the less sensitive design Loren seems to be working towards not much. For a more sensitive, easy to drive, big monitor with the flexibility (i.e. pots and/or switches) to be placed against a wall then approaching the 4.1 ohms of the "Rockin It Old School" monitor is the concern. Since there are alternative tweeters that do not have a low impedance, have a few dB less sensitivity to be closer to the woofer, can handle the power, possibly with a bit of waveguide loading and are close enough in price then picking one seems the right move.

Has picking drivers from PE become one of the objectives?

[isaeagle4031]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I can pull t/s numbers on them, sure.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I agree on the tweeter.

Hey, isaeagle4031, is there any chance you could accurately measure the real world sensitivity of one of your ST305's at say 200 to 300 hz which would give us a pretty accurate reflection of the sensitivity the mid will need to match?

Andy what is the issue you have with a 4ohm tweeter? After series resistance, the top end will probably still be in the 6ohm area and NO amp will have a problem driving that.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Again, I would be fine with a suitable 15" driver...I'd love that. The closest thing I've seen is the DC380-8 sealed. It takes 100 liters just like I've been modelling the ST305 and gives a sealed F3 of about 42 which is very similar in terms of overall bass extension to a vented F3 around 30 esp when room gain is figured in. If we chose that the sensitivity might be 2db higher than the ST305, but again the overall output capability is less due to xmax limited power handling problems in the LF. A vented cab for the DC380 would help a little with excursion problems down low but the cabinet size gets HUGE.

I think the ST305 was your suggestion IIRC. In a competent three way the woofer should clearly be the limiting factor in regards to sensitivity. By choosing the ST305 the sensitivity is higher than it would have been with the DCS 12" or the 15" DCS woofer and I would guess we will end up around 90 db for 1 watt.

I agree the 6FE200 trades sensitivity for a more ragged response compared to 6FE100. The B&C that Mayhem suggested costs twice as much. The ScanSpeak Discovery 15M is a great looking mid driver but is $70 vs $41 for the Faital. I appreciate you searching for a more sensitive mid with a nice smooth response that doesn't cost too much. I think in the overall budget scheme here a mid in the $45 range give or take a few bucks would be good. I linked a TB 6" mid above that has a smooth response and adequate sensitivity but only 15w rms power handling which seems a bit low for this speaker. If you find any great mids for this, please let us know.

Anyway I still think the ST305 is the sweet spot for this project. If you have a woofer that we haven't considered that will be better at a similar price then by all means that would be great to hear about.

Currently I'm still on board for ST305, Fe100, DX25. I think the mid will just match the woofer sensitivity and will avoid the need for burning up amp power with padding resistors on the mids.

I think the design of the speaker is/has moved away from those old 3 ways which is my interest and more towards your big. If the design does switch to a 15" then all 3 drivers will be different, in a different sized cabinet with different sensitivities and bass extenstion with only a shared target price point.

I am not happy with the DX25 for a monitor because of the 4 ohms but appreciate if this big speaker drops to 90dB efficiency or less as suggested by current discussion then it will become less of an issue. The tweeter I have lightly pencilled in is the old Vifa H26TG-35-06 which is currently available locally but whether that will persist I do not know.

The FaitalPro 6FE100 would look a good choice if it was a dB or two more sensitive than 90dB. The current tentative choice is still the well priced, sensitive but more ragged FaitalPro 6FE200. I am still looking for alternatives that do not cost twice the price.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

That would definitely get the job done here. I'm sure it is extremely clean sounding given the sensitivity, FR and power handling. Distortion measurements by Zaph for it were very good too.

Agreed on bass extension.......always low as you can go!

I've used the BC as a dedicated mid only in several projects crossed as low as 1.4khz and as high as 3.5khz where it begins to beam a bit. It's low pass sweet spot for me has been 250hz.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Andy what is the issue you have with a 4ohm tweeter? After series resistance, the top end will probably still be in the 6ohm area and NO amp will have a problem driving that.

[andy19191]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I would only add that the old three ways from Pioneer, Sansui, Scott, etc were pretty efficient systems. They were tuned higher for midbass slam and we're very impressive with classic rock and pop of the era.

Me, personally........my take for something like this is go big or go home......and that includes efficiency and bass extension. I'm happy with the DX25. It's an awesome tweeter at a great price if used correctly. Use it in a small waveguide and you can do LR2 at 1.8khz. That would allow for a nice directivity match to a 6" mid.

I think the design of the speaker is/has moved away from those old 3 ways which is my interest and more towards your big. If the design does switch to a 15" then all 3 drivers will be different, in a different sized cabinet with different sensitivities and bass extenstion with only a shared target price point.

I am not happy with the DX25 for a monitor because of the 4 ohms but appreciate if this big speaker drops to 90dB efficiency or less as suggested by current discussion then it will become less of an issue. The tweeter I have lightly pencilled in is the old Vifa H26TG-35-06 which is currently available locally but whether that will persist I do not know.

The FaitalPro 6FE100 would look a good choice if it was a dB or two more sensitive than 90dB. The current tentative choice is still the well priced, sensitive but more ragged FaitalPro 6FE200. I am still looking for alternatives that do not cost twice the price.

[Mayhem13]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Agreed on bass extension.......always low as you can go!

I've used the BC as a dedicated mid only in several projects crossed as low as 1.4khz and as high as 3.5khz where it begins to beam a bit. It's low pass sweet spot for me has been 250hz.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I'd happily go with a 15". Personally I have a bias in favor of the 12" or 15" over smaller drivers even if it makes sense in terms of extension etc. To be sure a pair of 8" wouldn't give up too much in terms of Vd or extension.

I'm still open to the DC380 for this. It will gain a little sensitivity and give up some overall output capability.

The only problem with the B&C is the price but they look really great. I'm listening to a pair of B&C 15BG100 right now. They would kick tail for this project...I have them tuned to 21 hz and the sensitivity is about 91db. They just cost like $336. In what sort of context have you used the B&C mid?

I agree that we should get sensitivity as much as possible here but I think there is a lot more LF content at lower frequencies in more modern music than there was 30 yrs ago. To that end I think it is nice to have better extension while still maintaining decent sensitivity.

Anyway....

I would only add that the old three ways from Pioneer, Sansui, Scott, etc were pretty efficient systems. They were tuned higher for midbass slam and we're very impressive with classic rock and pop of the era.

Me, personally........my take for something like this is go big or go home......and that includes efficiency and bass extension. I'm happy with the DX25. It's an awesome tweeter at a great price if used correctly. Use it in a small waveguide and you can do LR2 at 1.8khz. That would allow for a nice directivity match to a 6" mid.

My next feeling would be coated paper or poly for the drivers........and particularly the midrange......a smooth rolloff on both ends. If used in the proper sized chamber, a second order high pass electrical wouldn't need much keeping down costs and retaining efficiency. With a low XO to the tweeter, the usual cone breakup found in these size mids wouldn't need any further work as they'd be low enough to not be an issue. Didn't review the Faital mid so I'm not sure what's the story there. I DO know the B&C 6md38 really well and it's an incredible midrange, ......unsurpassed in its price point IMO.

For a big tower type system, if the choice was limited to no larger than 12", I'd skip it all together and go with a pair of 8's. For the money, more motor strength, deep extension, efficiency and power handling. A win win all around if the system is gonna be 42" tall anyways.

[Mayhem13]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Yeah, I know. If folks here with experience feel like an 88 or 89 db mid will be adequate then I think that opens up the field a lot. TB would have several options.

I would only add that the old three ways from Pioneer, Sansui, Scott, etc were pretty efficient systems. They were tuned higher for midbass slam and we're very impressive with classic rock and pop of the era.

Me, personally........my take for something like this is go big or go home......and that includes efficiency and bass extension. I'm happy with the DX25. It's an awesome tweeter at a great price if used correctly. Use it in a small waveguide and you can do LR2 at 1.8khz. That would allow for a nice directivity match to a 6" mid.

My next feeling would be coated paper or poly for the drivers........and particularly the midrange......a smooth rolloff on both ends. If used in the proper sized chamber, a second order high pass electrical wouldn't need much keeping down costs and retaining efficiency. With a low XO to the tweeter, the usual cone breakup found in these size mids wouldn't need any further work as they'd be low enough to not be an issue. Didn't review the Faital mid so I'm not sure what's the story there. I DO know the B&C 6md38 really well and it's an incredible midrange, ......unsurpassed in its price point IMO.

For a big tower type system, if the choice was limited to no larger than 12", I'd skip it all together and go with a pair of 8's. For the money, more motor strength, deep extension, efficiency and power handling. A win win all around if the system is gonna be 42" tall anyways.