Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

[mattp]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

no ...

Interesting...

I didn't see the attached pic. Was it in your sig?

I think what we are shooting for is something with similar output capability in a floorstanding tower with a classic form factor, but with higher emphasis on "hifi" sound than on absolute output levels. That would be my nutshell assessment.

Lets try this again.

Blue is the ST305, pink is the PRV mid. (Ignore everything below 200)



I see a lot of mention/going back and forth about the ST305 woofer here too. These are 2.6 net cubes tuned to 31 and they will hit 25 with authority. Xmax is also pretty conservative as well I should mention. I don't think there is a better 12" choice for a large floor stander. Not sure if the decision has been made or not yet, but the ST305 gets my vote by far. Here is a pic for scale BTW, I'm 6'-2" and about 240. Cabs are 31"H x 14"W x 16"D, about 80 lbs each.



Hopefully you can see these pics.

[rpb]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

That was the PRV 8MR400-NDY. I said screen shot, I meant picture. I would only cross the DX25 at 2.5kHz 3rd order personally, especially if you want that kind of output from it. I haven't read the entire thread in detail but I'll go through it again to see what it is you are wanting from the project in question.

You did see the attached pic right?

What was the final sensitivity of your design? Several mids that have been considered are right around 87 dB. Do you think that's high enough to get a good tonal balance?

[Mayhem13]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

OK. Good info on the sensitivity side. So mids at 88 to 89 db should be OK to consider.

I was alluding to exactly the power compression concerns you mention in my statement above about wanting a system that reaches the desired output without having distortion start to rise. Power compression in that setting is just another form of distortion as levels start to rise. I totally agree about the TB. There is a nice looking 6" TB that is sensitive enough but only handles 15watts...that won't get it done for this design. I would like the entire system to do 110 db (on paper based on sensitivity and continuous power handling specs) realizing that power compression will start to creep in several db below that level.

Scan rates the 15m for 75 watts per the IEC 17.1 100hr noise test using a 200 hz 2nd order highpass

Ok Loren....I'm thoroughly confused now. I COMPLETELY AGREE with the effects of power compression......yet we're designing a hifi speaker on a limited budget.....the two don't add up. I've seen a couple of posts concerning impedance and the safety of receivers?....again, a contradiction to a HiFi based speaker which should be driven with power amps with ample available current to handle 4ohm loads.

So if we're to summize the goals of this project from what I THINK you wish to accomplish (remember your critical listening statement above and the title of this thread) is a 92db efficient large format speaker system with a stable nominal 8 ohm impedance that can extend flat to 30hz in room and can reach 100db levels without power compression or excessive harmonic distortion for less than $500 in drivers and XO components?

I can't put this in any terms more gracefully other than the concept is Fubar with hifi based midrange drivers. You need a 94db efficient mid no larger than 6" and 8ohms nominal that can extend to 300hz on the bottom and 3khz on the top to work with the DX25. Such a driver does not exist outside of pro audio solutions.

So if you agree with my overview ( using the ST305 of course as there's really good value there) my suggestion would be to establish a budget for the mids ( considering the cost of the woofers and tweets is established) and using the other data, narrowing the pool of candidates. You CAN they that hifi level of fidelity.......but it's not going to be without a cost....literally! Lol

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I didn't see the attached pic. Was it in your sig?

I think what we are shooting for is something with similar output capability in a floorstanding tower with a classic form factor, but with higher emphasis on "hifi" sound than on absolute output levels. That would be my nutshell assessment.

That was the PRV 8MR400-NDY. I said screen shot, I meant picture. I would only cross the DX25 at 2.5kHz 3rd order personally, especially if you want that kind of output from it. I haven't read the entire thread in detail but I'll go through it again to see what it is you are wanting from the project in question.

You did see the attached pic right?

[filmslayer]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

You did see the attached pic right?

no ...

[mattp]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Matt,

Thanks for chiming in. When mentioning your project earlier I wanted to take care to mention different goals but not to state that there were any shortcomings or problems in your design. I'm sure it meets the objectives of loud and full range with no problems at all.

Do you feel like the DX25 would still take that kind of power if crossed a little lower (2.5k)?

I don't see any screenshot attached. Is your measurement of the 8" PRV mid?

Given your knowledge of the RIOS project what elements of the currently discussed project do you think would differentiate it significantly enough from the RIOS to make it a worthwhile contribution?

That was the PRV 8MR400-NDY. I said screen shot, I meant picture. I would only cross the DX25 at 2.5kHz 3rd order personally, especially if you want that kind of output from it. I haven't read the entire thread in detail but I'll go through it again to see what it is you are wanting from the project in question.

You did see the attached pic right?

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Matt,

Thanks for chiming in. When mentioning your project earlier I wanted to take care to mention different goals but not to state that there were any shortcomings or problems in your design. I'm sure it meets the objectives of loud and full range with no problems at all.

Do you feel like the DX25 would still take that kind of power if crossed a little lower (2.5k)?

I don't see any screenshot attached. Is your measurement of the 8" PRV mid?

Given your knowledge of the RIOS project what elements of the currently discussed project do you think would differentiate it significantly enough from the RIOS to make it a worthwhile contribution?

For those interested, here is a screenshot of the PRV mid taken at tweeter level in the RIOS cabinets (probably 10-15 degrees off axis). This is with a 2.83 v input load measured in our anechoic chamber.



PRV came to us wanting more feedback on this particular driver so they gave myself and one other tech each a pair to use in two different projects. Mine was to be used for a pool room/bar basement area and I knew it would be cranked, hence the ST305 as its compliment. This setup can clip an EP2000 and not blink. I agree the dust cap leaves a bit to be desired but it is a very good sounding mid nonetheless. I will add that the first priority for the RIOS project was loud, with overall SQ being a close second. Not much voicing was done beyond l-pad adjusting and adding a zobel. The DX25 tweeters can really take a pounding FWIW.

I noticed my project being mentioned so I thought I would chime in. Just my $0.02, YMMV/etc.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Careful application of flat black paint could solve that I guess

+1 on the ugly dustcap. I find that less than attractive also.

[mattp]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

For those interested, here is a screenshot of the PRV mid taken at tweeter level in the RIOS cabinets (probably 10-15 degrees off axis). This is with a 2.83 v input load measured in our anechoic chamber.



PRV came to us wanting more feedback on this particular driver so they gave myself and one other tech each a pair to use in two different projects. Mine was to be used for a pool room/bar basement area and I knew it would be cranked, hence the ST305 as its compliment. This setup can clip an EP2000 and not blink. I agree the dust cap leaves a bit to be desired but it is a very good sounding mid nonetheless. I will add that the first priority for the RIOS project was loud, with overall SQ being a close second. Not much voicing was done beyond l-pad adjusting and adding a zobel. The DX25 tweeters can really take a pounding FWIW.

I noticed my project being mentioned so I thought I would chime in. Just my $0.02, YMMV/etc.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Careful application of flat black paint could solve that I guess

+1 on the ugly dustcap. I find that less than attractive also.

[thekorvers]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

I am still not sold on the PRV midrange. It probably is a good driver but the lack of anyone using it and giving a good report about it here on the forum is less reassuring. Also, call me shallow, but I don't like the printed logo on the dustcap aesthetically. Some folks here have definitely given good reviews in this thread regarding the Faital mids. Certainly either of those is better bang for the buck than the scan disco.

+1 on the ugly dustcap. I find that less than attractive also.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

It is clear that if you are putting 10 continuous watts into a 91 db sensitive driver in the midrange passband in your living room then it is VERY loud. I certainly do think though that systems with additional dynamic headroom really suck me in sonically. I'm sure the Intrepids have PLENTY of dynamic headroom. I think this does still leave the RS150P into the discussion. There is a certain side of me that wants to use something that hasn't been used too much; that is part of the appeal of the Scan 15M personally. That is balanced by some desire to make it an all PE design. Obviously there are many ways to skin a cat...

Don't discount a mid or tweeter with a lower power rating. Most of the power is consumed by the woofer. I am using a MarkAudio Alpair10 and even when I biamp (adcom gfa555 200w/ch) there are no issues with capacity.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

Don't discount a mid or tweeter with a lower power rating. Most of the power is consumed by the woofer. I am using a MarkAudio Alpair10 and even when I biamp (adcom gfa555 200w/ch) there are no issues with capacity.

[lorenmjones]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

OK. Good info on the sensitivity side. So mids at 88 to 89 db should be OK to consider.

I was alluding to exactly the power compression concerns you mention in my statement above about wanting a system that reaches the desired output without having distortion start to rise. Power compression in that setting is just another form of distortion as levels start to rise. I totally agree about the TB. There is a nice looking 6" TB that is sensitive enough but only handles 15watts...that won't get it done for this design. I would like the entire system to do 110 db (on paper based on sensitivity and continuous power handling specs) realizing that power compression will start to creep in several db below that level.

Scan rates the 15m for 75 watts per the IEC 17.1 100hr noise test using a 200 hz 2nd order highpass

You could probably live with a mid that was 3dB less sensitive than the woofer, if it can handle the power gracefully. In the crossover design, you can get a sensitivity boost in a band pass network at the expense of it dipping in impedance. Watch it with 4 ohm (or multiple) drivers. A lot of revievers don't like loads dipping to 2.8 ohms in the low midrange and sound like nails on chalkboard when the limiting kicks in on a vocal fundamental.

I'm curious about the Scan Disco mid - how it compares power compression wise to the pro mids being considered. I know from experience that these pro mids will continue to sound nice when driven hard - where a 15 watt Tangband goes to hell when trying to peak at 110 dB.

[isaeagle4031]

Re: Is there interest in a large three way "monkey coffin" collaboration?

My guestimate would be around 87 or so. The silverflutes have some issues around 2k so I will be crossing them around there. Personally I prefer a 4ohm woofer, about a 6-8 ohm mid, and 8ohm tweet for cost purposes. Mids will go in about a .3 cube sealed sub enclosure. Overall height about 39".